View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Chapter 13

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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Chapter 13
|H=Response to claims made in "Chapter 13: LDS Molecular Apologetics"
|S=
|L1=
|T=[[../../|Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church]]
|A=Simon G. Southerton
|<=[[../Chapter 12|Chapter 12]]
|>=[[../Chapter 14|Chapter 14]]
}}	
{{ChartLosingChapter13}}
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Chapter 13
|H=Response to claims made in Losing a Lost Tribe, "Chapter 13: LDS Molecular Apologetics"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: 180 - Most Mormons have had their ancestors posthumously "baptized into the Mormon faith"
|L2=Response to claim: 181 - FARMS has downplayed the potential of James Sorenson's "global molecular genealogy project"
|L3=Response to claim: 181 - The Molecular Genealogy Foundation may reveal disconcerting "surprises" in LDS family trees that trace back to "well known polygamists" in the early church
|L4=Response to claim: 184 - The Indian Student Placement Program was an attempt to turn them "white and delightsome"
|L5=Response to claim: 184 - "Mormon folklore" claims that Native Americans and Polynesians carry a curse based upon "misdeeds on the part of their ancestors"
|L6=Response to claim: 185 - LDS scholars experienced in DNA research have spoken only to Mormon audiences
|L7=Response to claim: 185-186 - In response to the DNA issue, the Church linked to an article written by Jeff Lindsey, "a chemical engineer with no professional training in DNA research"
|L8=Response to claim: 186 - LDS scientists have responded to DNA findings by claiming that it would be improbable to find evidence of an Israelite presence in the Americas
|L9=Response to claim: 186 - LDS writers claim that the presence of other people in the Americas actually supports "careful readings of the Book of Mormon"
|L10=Response to claim: 186 - LDS scholars "have come to the conclusion" that Book of Mormon populations comprised a very small part of a much larger group of people on the continent
|L11=Response to claim: 187 - LDS suggest that it would impossible to use DNA technology to identify a small local colony of individuals
|L12=Response to claim: 188 - The author claims that it is not likely that "founders effect" or "genetic drift" would "completely frustrate the identification of Israelite DNA in the Americas"
|L13=Response to claim: 188 - The author claims that Book of Mormon states that the Lehite/Mulekite groups were both descended from Jewish ancestors
|L14=Response to claim: 189 - The author claims that the ancestry of Israelites living today will all "meet at the Caucasian branch of the human family tree"
|L15=Response to claim: 190 - The Lemba prove that it is possible to detect Middle Eastern genes in a foreign environment
|L16=Response to claim: 190 - Church leaders have consistently associated Lamanites with Central America
|L17=Response to claim: 191 - The Mayan Empire is claimed to be considered by Mormons to be the closest to the people of the Book of Mormon
|L18=Response to claim: 191 - There is too much genetic variation in the X lineage to account for Book of Mormon people to have arrived as recently as 2600 years ago
|L19=Response to claim: 192 - LDS writers have overlooked the fact that Mitochondrial DNA research shows that 99.6% of Native Americans migrated to the American continent thousands of years before the Israelites came into existence
|L20=Response to claim: 192 - The remaining 0.4% is likely the result of genetic mixture with people who came to the New World after Columbus
|L21=Response to claim: 193 - LDS scholars claim that the impact of Book of Mormon immigrants to the New World made an impact "so small that they barely mattered"
|L22=Response to claim: 193 - A great number of Native Americans are now assumed to have been absorbed into New World Israelite civilizations
|L23=Response to claim: 193 - "Other people" in the Book of Mormon have "remained invisible" to most readers
|L24=Response to claim: 193-194 - "Gentiles who inhabited the Americas before, during and after the Book of Mormon period are potential Lamanites"
|L25=Response to claim: 194 - Mormons have "traditionally thought" that any Asian presence in the New World occurred after the Book of Mormon period
|L26=Response to claim: 195- The children of Lehi were to be "kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves"
|L27=Response to claim: 195 - There are no explicit references to non-Israelites living near the Lehites or Jaredites
|L28=Response to claim: 195 - Five hundred years after their arrival, groups were still identified as having descended from Laman, Lemuel, Ishmael, etc
|L29=Response to claim: 196 - Familial terms used in the Book of Mormon imply a genetic link
|L30=Response to claim: 197 - Joseph Smith and other leaders taught that the Book of Mormon described the origins of the Indians in the western hemisphere
|L31=Response to claim: 197 - Mormons "tend to be hazy" regarding what past Church leaders have said regarding geography
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: 180 - Most Mormons have had their ancestors posthumously "baptized into the Mormon faith"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Most Mormons have had their ancestors posthumously "baptized into the Mormon faith."
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{disinformation|Those who receive baptism for the dead are not "baptized into the faith."  Members believe that non-members are thereby given the ability to accept or reject the gospel when they hear it.  Baptism for the dead does not make them "Mormons."
}}
{{:Question: Are the dead being "baptized into the Mormon faith?"}}

==Response to claim: 181 - FARMS has downplayed the potential of James Sorenson's "global molecular genealogy project"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
FARMS has downplayed the potential of James Sorenson's "global molecular genealogy project."
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{propaganda|The author needs to provide actual evidence of this claim. 
}}

==Response to claim: 181 - The Molecular Genealogy Foundation may reveal disconcerting "surprises" in LDS family trees that trace back to "well known polygamists" in the early church==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The Molecular Genealogy Foundation may reveal disconcerting "surprises" in LDS family trees that trace back to "well known polygamists" in the early church.
}}
{{propaganda|Author's opinion that the project may reveal embarrassing information about the descendants of Joseph Smith and other Church leaders through plural wives. However, no such embarrassing information was revealed. The genetic testing showed that none of the people that had been thought to be descendants of Joseph Smith were related to him at all. The only known descendants of Joseph Smith were through his wife Emma.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith father any children through polygamous marriages?}}

==Response to claim: 184 - The Indian Student Placement Program was an attempt to turn them "white and delightsome"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The Indian Student Placement Program was an attempt to turn them "white and delightsome."
|authorsources=<br>
# 
*Thomas Murphy, doctoral thesis.
}}
{{propaganda|This is nonsense.
}}
{{:Question: Did some Church leaders believe that the skin of the Lamanites would turn white?}}

==Response to claim: 184 - "Mormon folklore" claims that Native Americans and Polynesians carry a curse based upon "misdeeds on the part of their ancestors"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
"Mormon folklore" claims that Native Americans and Polynesians carry a curse based upon "misdeeds on the part of their ancestors."
|authorsources=<br>
# 
*Thomas W. Murphy and Simon G. Southerton. 2003. "Genetic Research: A 'Galileo Event' for Mormons," ''Anthropology News'', 44:20.
}}
{{propaganda|The author provides no source for this "Mormon folklore."
}}

==Response to claim: 185 - LDS scholars experienced in DNA research have spoken only to Mormon audiences==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS scholars experienced in DNA research have spoken only to Mormon audiences.
|authorsources=<br>
#Scott R. Woodward, "DNA and the Book of Mormon," FAIR. (2001)
}}
{{disinformation|This is nonsense. One LDS author on DNA matters is John Butler, an internationally recognized expert in the use of forensic DNA&mdash;he literally wrote the textbook used by law enforcement on this matter.  Butler has spoken to many audiences about DNA matters.
*{{JBMS-12-1-4}}<!--Butler-->
*{{FR-18-1-6}}<!--Butler-->
}}

==Response to claim: 185-186 - In response to the DNA issue, the Church linked to an article written by Jeff Lindsey, "a chemical engineer with no professional training in DNA research"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
In response to the DNA issue, the Church linked to an article written by Jeff Lindsey, "a chemical engineer with no professional training in DNA research."
|authorsources=<br>
#www.lds.org, "Mistakes in the News," 2003.
*Jeff D. Lindsay, [http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Book of Mormon?"] (2003)
}}
{{propaganda|This is classic ''ad hominem''.  What matters are not Lindsey's credentials, but whether his argument is accurate.  The author never engages Lindsay's evidence or argument; he simply treats it as unworthy of attention. Ironically, the author of the book here under review has no professional training in population genetics (he is a plant biologist), and yet he expects ''us'' to accept his assessment.
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists not official}}

==Response to claim: 186 - LDS scientists have responded to DNA findings by claiming that it would be improbable to find evidence of an Israelite presence in the Americas==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS scientists have responded to DNA findings by claiming that it would be improbable to find evidence of an Israelite presence in the Americas.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{FR-15-2-6}} <!--McClellan, 2003-->
*Michael F. Whiting, [http://farms.byu.edu/multimedia/viewmovie.php?id=1 "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Responding to the Critics,"] (2003)
}}
{{propaganda|The author has actually elsewhere expressed his agreement with this claim, noting that LDS scientists have argued that "Bottleneck effect, genetic drift, Hardy-Weinberg violations and other technical problems would prevent us from detecting Israelite genes [in Amerindians].  I agree entirely.  In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it would be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later."<ref name="simon">Simon Southerton, e-mail, “Answering the DNA apologetics,” 15 February 2005, 18h42 (copy in author’s possession).</ref>

Interestingly, this admission was later removed from the website of Southerton's publisher.  Southerton goes on to argue that the Book of Mormon "doesn't say this," but as we've noted some leaders and scholars have been reading the text that way for at least a century.  The author even admits as much on [[#154|p. 154]].

So, this attack works only if one reads the text in the most naive, ill-informed way possible&mdash;as the author seems determined to do.
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}}

==Response to claim: 186 - LDS writers claim that the presence of other people in the Americas actually supports "careful readings of the Book of Mormon"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS writers claim that the presence of other people in the Americas actually supports "careful readings of the Book of Mormon."
|authorsources=<br>
#{{FR-15-2-1}} <!--Peterson 2003a-->
*{{FR-15-2-7}} <!--Roper, 2003a-->
}}
{{information|LDS writers have been saying this for at least a hundred years, as the author admitted back on [[#154|p. 154]].
}}

==Response to claim: 186 - LDS scholars "have come to the conclusion" that Book of Mormon populations comprised a very small part of a much larger group of people on the continent==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS scholars "have come to the conclusion" that Book of Mormon populations comprised a very small part of a much larger group of people on the continent.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{FR-15-2-1}} <!--Peterson 2003a-->
}}
{{information|Some LDS leaders and scholars have been saying this for at least a hundred years, as the author admitted back on [[#154|p. 154]].
}}

==Response to claim: 187 - LDS suggest that it would impossible to use DNA technology to identify a small local colony of individuals==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS suggest that it would impossible to use DNA technology to identify a small local colony of individuals.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{JBMS-12-1-5}} <!--Meldrum and Stephens, 2003.-->
}}
{{information|The author himself agrees with the statement.
}}

==Response to claim: 188 - The author claims that it is not likely that "founders effect" or "genetic drift" would "completely frustrate the identification of Israelite DNA in the Americas"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The author claims that it is not likely that "founders effect" or "genetic drift" would "completely frustrate the identification of Israelite DNA in the Americas."
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{information|This is correct, and LDS scholars agree.}}
{{:Source:Southerton:2008-2014:if a small group...entered a massive population...it would be hard to detect their mitochondrial or Y chromosome DNA}}

==Response to claim: 188 - The author claims that Book of Mormon states that the Lehite/Mulekite groups were both descended from Jewish ancestors==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The author claims that Book of Mormon states that the Lehite/Mulekite groups were both descended from Jewish ancestors.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{disinformation|Lehi was a descendant of ''Manasseh'', and was not a Jew, however, author later makes the correct statement regarding Lehi's ancestry on [[#5|page 5]]. The author makes the same error, however on [[#xiii|p. xiii]].  This is our another hint that the author's familiarity with the necessary detail in the Book of Mormon is not adequate.
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Jews}}

==Response to claim: 189 - The author claims that the ancestry of Israelites living today will all "meet at the Caucasian branch of the human family tree"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The author claims that the ancestry of Israelites living today will all "meet at the Caucasian branch of the human family tree."
|authorsources=<br>
# No source provided.
}}
{{propaganda|It is not clear what this has to do with the Book of Mormon.
}}

==Response to claim: 190 - The Lemba prove that it is possible to detect Middle Eastern genes in a foreign environment==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The Lemba prove that it is possible to detect Middle Eastern genes in a foreign environment.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{JBMS-9-2-11}} <!--Sorenson, 2000b-->
}}
{{information|The Lemba are a special case, only made possible by their links to Jewish priestly families.  98% of known modern Jews cannot be identified by genetic testing.
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Lemba}}
{{:Question: Can the Lemba and Cohen modal haplotype be used to either prove or disprove the Book of Mormon?}}

==Response to claim: 190 - Church leaders have consistently associated Lamanites with Central America==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Church leaders have consistently associated Lamanites with Central America.
|authorsources=<br>
#Whiting, 2003b.
}}
{{information|This is correct.}}

==Response to claim: 191 - The Mayan Empire is claimed to be considered by Mormons to be the closest to the people of the Book of Mormon==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The Mayan Empire is claimed to be considered by Mormons to be the closest to the people of the Book of Mormon.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source specified.
}}
{{misinformation|The Church has no official position on this issue.
}}
{{:Question: Is it possible that the Nephites and Lamanites are associated with the pre-Classic Maya, and the Jaredites are associated with the Olmec?}}

==Response to claim: 191 - There is too much genetic variation in the X lineage to account for Book of Mormon people to have arrived as recently as 2600 years ago==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
There is too much genetic variation in the X lineage to account for Book of Mormon people to have arrived as recently as 2600 years ago.
|authorsources=<br>
#Brown, et al., 1998.
}}
{{information}}
{{:Question: Is DNA Haplogroup X2a proof that the Book of Mormon fits best in a geography located in the Great Lakes region?}}

==Response to claim: 192 - LDS writers have overlooked the fact that Mitochondrial DNA research shows that 99.6% of Native Americans migrated to the American continent thousands of years before the Israelites came into existence==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS writers have overlooked the fact that Mitochondrial DNA research shows that 99.6% of Native Americans migrated to the American continent thousands of years before the Israelites came into existence, and none of these are candidates for Israelite origin.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{disinformation|LDS authors have anticipated such findings by at least a century (see, again, [[#154|p. 154]]). This attack works only if one reads the text in the most naive, ill-informed way possible&mdash;as the author seems determined to do.
}}

==Response to claim: 192 - The remaining 0.4% is likely the result of genetic mixture with people who came to the New World after Columbus==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The remaining 0.4% is likely the result of genetic mixture with people who came to the New World after Columbus.
|authorsources=<br>
#Author's conclusion.
}}
{{propaganda|This is the author's conclusion.}}

==Response to claim: 193 - LDS scholars claim that the impact of Book of Mormon immigrants to the New World made an impact "so small that they barely mattered"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
LDS scholars claim that the impact of Book of Mormon immigrants to the New World made an impact "so small that they barely mattered."
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{information|The author has actually elsewhere expressed his agreement with this claim, noting that LDS scientists have argued that "Bottleneck effect, genetic drift, Hardy-Weinberg violations and other technical problems would prevent us from detecting Israelite genes [in Amerindians].  I agree entirely.  In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it would be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later."<ref name="simon"></ref>
* Interestingly, this admission was later removed from the website of Southerton's publisher.  Southerton goes on to argue that the Book of Mormon "doesn't say this," but as we've noted some leaders and scholars have been reading the text that way for at least a century.  The author even admits as much on [[#154|p. 154]]. So, this attack works only if one reads the text in the most naive, ill-informed way possible&mdash;as the author seems determined to do.
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}}

==Response to claim: 193 - A great number of Native Americans are now assumed to have been absorbed into New World Israelite civilizations==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
A great number of Native Americans are now assumed to have been absorbed into New World Israelite civilizations.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{propaganda|The Book of Mormon does not describe "New World Israelite civilizations." The small groups of Lehites and Mulekites likely had a cultural impact on the existing inhabitants, however, the resulting civilizations were not Israelite in character.
}}

==Response to claim: 193 - "Other people" in the Book of Mormon have "remained invisible" to most readers==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
"Other people" in the Book of Mormon have "remained invisible" to most readers.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{propaganda|Just because someone does not notice something does not mean it was there.  Again, the author seems determined to ignore any solution to his problem, and read the text in the most blinkered, ill-informed way possible.
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}}
{{:Question: Why aren't other inhabitants of the America's mentioned in the Book of Mormon?}}

==Response to claim: 193-194 - "Gentiles who inhabited the Americas before, during and after the Book of Mormon period are potential Lamanites"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
"Gentiles who inhabited the Americas before, during and after the Book of Mormon period are potential Lamanites."
|authorsources=<br>
#{{s|2|Nephi|1|5}}
*{{JBMS-12-1-2}} <!--Sorenson and Roper, 2003-->
*{{JBMS-12-1-5}} <!--Meldrum and Stephens, 2003-->
}}
{{propaganda|This claim makes no sense.
}}

==Response to claim: 194 - Mormons have "traditionally thought" that any Asian presence in the New World occurred ''after'' the Book of Mormon period==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Mormons have "traditionally thought" that any Asian presence in the New World occurred ''after'' the Book of Mormon period.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{propaganda|The author needs evidence for this claim. Even Bruce R. McConkie (a good example of "traditional views") saw many sources and influence on Amerindian populations:
<blockquote>
The American Indians, however, as Columbus found them also had other blood than that of Israel in their veins. It is possible that isolated remnants of the Jaredites may have lived through the period of destruction in which millions of their fellows perished. It is quite apparent that groups of orientals found their way over the Bering Strait and gradually moved southward to mix with the Indian peoples. We have records of a colony of Scandinavians attempting to set up a settlement in America some 500 years before Columbus. There are archeological indications that an unspecified number of groups of people probably found their way from the old to the new world in pre-Columbian times. Out of all these groups would have come the American Indians as they were discovered in the 15th century.<ref>{{MD1|start=33}}</ref>
</blockquote>

In any case, if the "traditional view" does not match the Book of Mormon text, then it should be set aside.
}}

==Response to claim: 195- The children of Lehi were to be "kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
The children of Lehi were to be "kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves."
|authorsources=<br>
#{{s|2|Nephi|1|8-9}}
*{{s|2|Nephi|1|10-11}}
*{{FR-15-2-7}} <!--Roper, 2003a-->
}}
{{misinformation|This promise applies only as long as the children of Lehi were righteous. They lost this blessing even within Book of Mormon times.
}}
* [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Amerindians]]
* [[Book of Mormon/Anachronisms/Demographics]]
* {{JBMS-1-1-2}} <!--Sorenson-->

==Response to claim: 195 - There are no explicit references to non-Israelites living near the Lehites or Jaredites==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
There are no explicit references to non-Israelites living near the Lehites or Jaredites.
|authorsources=<br>
#Brent L. Metcalf, "Reinventing Lamanite Identity," ''Sunstone'', 131:20-25 (2004).
}}
{{information|No ''explicit'' references. There are, however, many ''implicit'' references. See also a response to the source: {{FR-16-2-5}} <!--Tvedtnes Reinventing-->
}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}}

==Response to claim: 195 - Five hundred years after their arrival, groups were still identified as having descended from Laman, Lemuel, Ishmael, etc==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Five hundred years after their arrival, groups were still identified as having descended from Laman, Lemuel, Ishmael, etc.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{s||Alma|43|13}}
}}
{{propaganda|The author is ''assuming'' what he wants to prove&mdash;that all such labels were about descent, rather than political or religious affiliation.
}}

==Response to claim: 196 - Familial terms used in the Book of Mormon imply a genetic link==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Familial terms used in the Book of Mormon imply a genetic link.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{s||Moroni|9|1}}
*Author's conclusion.
}}
{{disinformation|The Book of Mormon itself makes it clear that except in a very early period, tribal designation is a ''political'', not genetic matter.
}}
{{:Question: Does the use of tribal affiliation in the Book of Mormon imply a genetic link between the members?}}

==Response to claim: 197 - Joseph Smith and other leaders taught that the Book of Mormon described the origins of the Indians in the western hemisphere==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Joseph Smith and other leaders taught that the Book of Mormon described the origins of the Indians in the western hemisphere.
|authorsources=<br>
#{{FR-15-2-7}} <!--Roper, 2003a-->
*{{FR-15-2-8}} <!--Roper, 2003b-->
}}
{{information|Joseph Smith and other leaders believed that all Native Americans were descendants of Lehi or Mulek's group.
}}
{{:Source:Oliver Cowdery:Jul 1835:A history of the inhabitants who peopled this continent, previous to its being discovered to Europeans by Columbus}}

==Response to claim: 197 - Mormons "tend to be hazy" regarding what past Church leaders have said regarding geography==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=Losing a Lost Tribe
|claim=
Mormons "tend to be hazy" regarding what past Church leaders have said regarding geography.
|authorsources=<br>
#No source given.
}}
{{disinformation|No, they haven't.}}
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Most Mormons}}
{{:Source:B.H. Roberts:New Witnesses For God:we need not be surprised if we sometimes find them mistaken in their conceptions and deductions}}
{{:Source:Joseph F. Smith:25 May 1903:the question of the situation of the city of Zarahemla was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance}}
{{:Source:Joseph F. Smith:circa 1918:President Smith declined to officially approve of the map, saying that the Lord had not yet revealed it}}
{{:Source:George F. Richards:1922:The land of North and South America is a very much favored portion of our Father's footstool}}
{{:Source:Anthony W. Ivins:Apr 1929:Where was the land of Zarahemla? Where was the City of Zarahemla?...There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question}}
{{:Source:James E. Talmage:Apr 1929:the Book of Mormon does not give us precise and definite information whereby we can locate those places with certainty}}
{{:Source:Melvin J. Ballard:Apr 1930:We were made to know that the Gospel message would find thousands who had the blood of Israel in their veins in South America}}
{{:Source:Heber J. Grant:1937:I am a firm believer that this country, both North and South America, is the choice land of the world}}
{{:Source:LDS Department of Education Study Manual:1938:the Book of Mormon deals only with the history and expansion of three small colonies which came to America and it does not deny or disprove the possibility of other immigrations}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Fielding Smith reject the theory that the final battlefield of the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica rather than New York?}}
{{:Source:Melvin J. Ballard:Apr 1938:for these millions who are in Mexico, Central America and South America their day must come}}
{{:Source:Washburn and Washburn:1939:An Approach to the Study of Book of Mormon Geography:Book cover}}
{{:Source:J. Reuben Clark:1940:Thus the hemisphere – Zion in its full area –was becoming “a land of liberty}}
{{:Source:LDS Department of Education Study Manual:1940:There is a tendency to use the Book of Mormon as a complete history of all pre-Columbian peoples...The book does not give an history of all peoples who came to America before Columbus}}
{{:Source:George Albert Smith:Oct 1940:They will find that it contains, in addition to what the Bible has told us about the world, what the Lord has said about this Western Hemisphere}}
{{:Source:David O. McKay:1843:and this includes Canada and the southern republics, was a choice land when the Jaredites left the land of Shinar approximately four thousand years ago}}
{{:Source:Ezra Taft Benson:Apr 1955:the Promised Land, the land of Zion, includes all of North and South America}}
{{:Source:Lowell T. Bennion:1955:The Book of Mormon itself does not purport to be a history of all pre-Columbian peoples in the Western Hemisphere}}
{{:Source:Harold B. Lee:11 Nov 1959:it seems all are in agreement that the followers of Lehi came to the western shores of South America}}
{{:Source:Mark E. Peterson:1982:Now, a General Authority might speculate, I suppose.  We have had speculation, for instance, on the part of some with respect to Book of Mormon geography}}
{{:Source:Dallin H. Oaks:29 Oct 1993:the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America}}
{{:Source:John A. Widtsoe:Jul 1950:under the Prophet's editorship Central America was denominated the region of Book of Mormon activities}}
{{:Source:Ezra Taft Benson:Apr 1960:This is a choice land - - all of America}}
{{:Source:Marion G. Romney:6 Apr 1963:I have for the past two years been supervising the Latin American missions...the Lamanites, many of whom live in these missions}}
{{:Source:Harold B. Lee:8 Jul 1966:if the Lord wanted us to know where it was, or where Zarahemla was, he’d have given us latitude and longitude, don’t you think?}}
{{:Source:BYU Master's Thesis:Aug 1968:Uses Mesoamerica as presumptive culture source for costumes destined for a Book of Mormon re-enactments}}
{{:Source:Paul R. Cheesman:Nov 1968:There are those who believe that there are two Hill Cumorahs...Advocates of this theory establish their analysis primarily from the internal evidences of the Book of Mormon}}
{{:Source:Ezra Taft Benson:1972:I wish that every person in my country, in your country, in all of the Americas on this entire continent would read the Book of Mormon, and in it the prophetic history of these lands}}
{{:Source:Marion G. Romney:1975:As the conflict intensified, all the people who had not been slain—men...gathered about that hill Cumorah}}
{{:Source:Spencer W. Kimball:Feb 1977:There are probably sixty million Lamanites in America}}
{{:Source:Hugh Nibley:1978:one tragically short-lived religious civilization that once flourished in Mesoamerica and then vanished toward the northeast in the course}}
{{:Source:Ezra Taft Benson:Jan 1979:God raised up wise leaders among your progenitors which afforded Latin American countries political freedom and independence}}
{{:Source:Ezra Taft Benson:Dec 1980:wise and inspired men in North, Central, and South America were raised up who proclaimed the sovereign truth that all men}}
{{:Source:Hugh Nibley:19 Aug 1983:All this took place in Central America}}
{{:Source:John Sorenson:Ensign:1984:the immediate land covered by the book’s events was probably only hundreds rather than thousands of miles long and wide}}
{{:Source:Neal A. Maxwell:1986:Whether located in Meso–America or elsewhere, they were one people among many peoples on this planet and perhaps even on the western hemisphere}}
{{:Question: Did the First Presidency identify the New York "Hill Cumorah" as the site of the Nephite final battles?}}
{{:Source:Encyclopedia of Mormonism:1992:The Church has not taken an official position with regard to location of geographical places}}

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