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| + | #REDIRECT[[Overview of the CES Letter]] |
| − | {{Resource Title|A FairMormon Analysis of "Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony" and "Debunking FairMormon"}}
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| − | <!-- {{epigraph|In any discussion, you have a positive obligation to learn at least enough to make the conversation possible. The University of Google doesn’t count. Remember: having a strong opinion about something isn’t the same as knowing something.<br><br>—Tom Nichols, [http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/ "The Death Of Expertise"] (17 January 2014)
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| − | }} -->
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| − | {{FAIRAnalysisHeader
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| − | |title="Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony" and "Debunking FairMormon"
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| − | |author=Jeremy Runnells
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| − | {{ChartCESLetterSummary}}
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| − | ==Overview==
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| − | | |
| − | Recommended: [http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CES-Reply.pdf "A Reply from a Former CES Employee"] (PDF)
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| − | | |
| − | ===''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony''===
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| − | | |
| − | ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' is an online document which is critical of Latter-day Saint truth claims. The document is comprised of a list of issues that the author states caused him to lose his testimony, and it is hosted on a number of websites which are critical of the Church. <ref>The PDF version of the letter is located at <nowiki>http://cesletter.com/</nowiki>. A response to FairMormon's initial response is located at <nowiki>http://www.cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/</nowiki> FairMormon's standing policy is not to link to critical websites. To view these sites, copy and paste the links into your browser.</ref> The author states that he is "a disaffected member who lost his testimony so it’s no secret which side I’m on at the moment. All this information is a result of over a year of intense research and an absolute rabid obsession with Joseph Smith and Church history. With this said, I’d be pretty arrogant and ignorant to say that I have all the information and that you don’t have answers." A long list of issues follows. The author ultimately concludes that "There are just way too many problems. We’re not just talking about one issue here. We’re talking about dozens of serious issues that undermine the very foundation of the LDS Church and its truth claims."
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| − | | |
| − | ===''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'' or ''Debunking FairMormon''===
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| − | | |
| − | The online document ''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'' or ''Debunking FairMormon'' is an apologetic attempt by the CES Letter author to respond to an earlier summary version of FairMormon's CES Letter response. The author incorporates much of the text of FairMormon's original summary responses and then attempts to, in his own words, "debunk" them. Many of his attempts to "debunk" involve the following tactics:
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| − | #Simply reasserting his original conclusions because he failed to understand the data.
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| − | #Having to "move the goalpost" on assertions for which he was proven wrong, and then asserting that it was FairMormon that focused on the wrong point.
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| − | #Speculating on the motives of historical figures for doing what they did without any supporting data, on the presumption that they were lying. | |
| − | FairMormon's responses to a number of assertions made in this "failure to debunk" are interspersed in the list of claims below.
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| − | | |
| − | ===PDF-based response to the March 31, 2015 revision of the ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony''===
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| − | | |
| − | An alternative response in the form of an annotated PDF of the March 31st revision of the Letter is also available at the following link: [http://debunking-cesletter.com "Letter to a CES Director : A Closer Look"].
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| − | | |
| − | ==Detailed responses to "Letter to a CES Director" and "Debunking FairMormon" are found in linked subarticles below==
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| − | The following links respond to individual claims contained in the following documents:
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| − | *'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' (April 2013)'''
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| − | *'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'' (a.k.a. ''Debunking FairMormon'') (July 2014)'''
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| − | *'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' (October 2014)'''
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| − | *'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' (March 2015)'''
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| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{SummaryItem
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| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions
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| − | |subject=Response to section "Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions"
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| − | |summary=The author asks why italicized text and errors from the King James Bible are present in the Book of Mormon. He also briefly discusses anachronisms, archaeology, and a theory that the Book of Mormon place names actually originated in the area around New York. The "View of the Hebrews" theory of Book of Mormon authorship is discussed.
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| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "What are 1769 King James Version edition errors doing in the Book of Mormon?"
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| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "That the witnesses never reported Joseph looking at a 1769 KJV Bible during the translation process actually enhances the likelihood that the Book of Mormon is a fraud"
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| − | |document2=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "At worst, Joseph waited until the witnesses weren't around to consult and copy from the 1769 KJV Bible"
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| − | |document3=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "What are these 17th century italicized words doing in the Book of Mormon?"
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| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Contrary to FairMormon’s assertion above that God himself revealed the 1769 KJV errors to Joseph, FairMormon is conceding here that Joseph copied KJV text over to the Book of Mormon"
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| − | |document5=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "2 Nephi 19:1...Joseph qualified the sea as the Red Sea"
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| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "The Book of Mormon includes mistranslated biblical passages that were later changed in Joseph Smith’s translation of the bible"
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| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "If Joseph was trying to make the Bible more correct, he would not change something that was correct according to Isaiah"
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| − | |document8=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "DNA analysis has concluded that Native American Indians do not originate from the Middle East"
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| − | |document9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "Why did the Church change the following section of the introduction page in the 2006 edition Book of Mormon shortly after the DNA results were released?"
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| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "Horses...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: "FairMormon considers a tapir to satisfy this requirement, I’m sorry but that just won’t work. Tapirs do not pull chariots. Especially chariots without wheels"
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| − | |document12=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "cattle...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document13=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "sheep...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink15=Response to claim: "swine...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document15=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink16=Response to claim: "goats...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document16=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink17=Response to claim: "elephants...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document17=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink18=Response to claim: "chariots...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document18=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink19=Response to claim: "wheat...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document19=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink20=Response to claim: "silk...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document20=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink21=Response to claim: "steel...did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document21=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink22=Response to claim: "iron did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times"
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| − | |document22=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink23=Response to claim: "There is absolutely no archaeological evidence to directly support the Book of Mormon"
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| − | |document23=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink24=Response to claim: "This is one of the reasons why unofficial apologists are coming up with the Limited Geography Model"
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| − | |document24=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink25=Response to claim: "Latter-day Saint Thomas Stuart Ferguson was BYU’s archaeology division (New World Archaeological Funding) founder"
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| − | |document25=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink26=Response to claim: "Many Book of Mormon names and places are strikingly similar to many local names and places of the region Joseph Smith lived"
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| − | |document26=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink27=Response to claim: "FairMormon’s strawman that these towns/cities were discovered only through maps may not be...how Holley found some of the towns"
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| − | |document27=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink28=Response to claim: "The largest city and capital of Comoros (formerly 'Camora')? Moroni"
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| − | |document28=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink29=Response to claim: "the uniform spelling for Hill Cumorah in the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon is spelled as 'Camorah'"
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| − | |document29=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink30=Response to claim: "'Camora' and settlement 'Moroni' were common names in pirate and treasure hunting stories involving Captain William Kidd"
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| − | |document30=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink31=Response to claim: "'View of the Hebrews' compared to the Book of Mormon"
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| − | |document31=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink32=Response to claim: "Joseph’s father having the same dream in 1811 as Lehi’s dream"
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| − | |document32=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink33=Response to claim: "Elder B.H. Roberts came to the following conclusion: 'Did Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews furnish structural material for Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon?'"
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| − | |document33=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink34=Response to claim: "The staggering parallels and similarities" of The Late War "to the Book of Mormon are astounding"
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| − | |document34=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
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| − | |sublink35=Response to claim: "Another fascinating book published in 1809, The First Book of Napoleon, is shocking"
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| − | |document35=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, March 2015
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| − | |sublink36=Response to claim: "The Book of Mormon taught and still teaches a Trinitarian view of the Godhead"
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| − | |document36=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{SummaryItem
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| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Book of Mormon Translation Concerns & Questions
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| − | |subject=Response to section "Book of Mormon Translation Concerns & Questions"
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| − | |summary=The author of the letter asks, "Why is the Church not being honest and transparent to its members about how Joseph Smith really translated the Book of Mormon? How am I supposed to be okay with this deception?"
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| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat for translating the Book of Mormon"
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| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "Sources that I clearly demonstrate were either unofficial, extremely obscure, or not clearly educating the member and investigator about the rock in the hat translation"
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| − | |document2=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: The rock in the hat is confirmed "in an obscure 1992 talk given by Elder Russell M. Nelson"
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| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "he used the same 'Ouija Board' that he used in his days treasure hunting where he would put in a rock – or a peep stone – in his hat"
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| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Why is the Church not being honest and transparent to its members about how Joseph Smith really translated the Book of Mormon?"
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| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "The issue here is the Church's continued displaying - still in 2014 - the incorrect, inaccurate, and deceptive art in its Conference Center, Church History Museum, Temple Square, Missionary publications, and official publications"
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| − | |document6=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{SummaryItem
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| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/First Vision Concerns & Questions
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| − | |subject=Response to section "First Vision Concerns & Questions"
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| − | |summary=The author states, "Like the rock in the hat story, I did not know there were multiple First Vision accounts. I did not know its contradictions or that the Church members didn’t know about a First Vision until 22 years after it supposedly happened. I was unaware of these omissions in the mission field as I was never taught or trained in the Missionary Training Center to teach investigators these facts."
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| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "There are at least 4 different First Vision accounts by Joseph Smith"
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| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "The dates / his ages are all over the place"
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| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "The dates / his ages: The 1832 account states Joseph was 15 years old when he had the vision in 1821 while the other accounts state he was 14 years old in 1820 when he had the vision"
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| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
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| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "The reason or motive for seeking divine help – bible reading and conviction of sins, a revival, a desire to know if God exists, wanting to know which church to join – are all over the place"
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| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Who appears to him – a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son – are all over the place."
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| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "he still manages to directly contradict himself by reporting “visitation of Angels” as compared to an actual visitation from Deity"
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| − | |document6=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "Joseph intended the exact wording to be 'pillar of light' – not 'pillar of fire'"
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| − | |document7=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "FairMormon is arguing here that Joseph Smith did not in fact see God the Father and his son Jesus Christ, which is an apostate view"
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| − | |document8=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "the Church altered Joseph's words to instead read "I received my First Vision...” in the History of the Church"
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| − | |document9=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "The historical record shows that there was no revival in Palmyra in 1820"
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| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "FairMormon and apologists have to do everything they can to stretch the 1817-1818 Revival as long as possible - all the way into 1820"
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| − | |document11=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: "the family joined Presbyterianism after Alvin’s death in November 1823 despite Joseph Smith claiming in the official 1838 account that they joined in 1820"
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| − | |document12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "Again, Joseph's mother, Lucy, and Joseph's brother, William, both stated that the family joined Presbyterianism after Alvin's death in November 1823"
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| − | |document13=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "Why did Joseph hold a Trinitarian view of the Godhead, as shown previously with the Book of Mormon, if he clearly saw that the Father and Son were separate embodied beings in the official First Vision?"
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| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink15=Response to claim: "There is absolutely no record of a First Vision prior to 1832"
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| − | |document15=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink16=Response to claim: "this actually confirms the point I’m making in that the first vision was unknown to the Saints and the world before 1832"
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| − | |document16=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | |sublink17=Response to claim: "In the 1832 account, Joseph said that before praying he knew that there was no true or living faith or denomination upon the earth"
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| − | |document17=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink18=Response to claim: "Joseph Fielding Smith, upon discovering the 1832 account, ripped out the pages out of the letter book"
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| − | |document18=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{SummaryItem
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| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Book of Abraham Concerns & Questions
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| − | |subject=Response to section "Book of Abraham Concerns & Questions"
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| − | |summary=The author notes that, "Egyptologists have found the source material for the Book of Abraham to be nothing more than a common pagan Egyptian funerary text for a deceased man named “Hor” in 1st century AD. In other words, it was a common Breathing Permit that the Egyptians buried with their dead. It has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham or anything Joseph claimed in his translation for the Book of Abraham."
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| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "scholars have found the original papyrus Joseph translated"
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| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "scholars...have dated it in first century AD, nearly 2,000 years after Abraham could have written it"
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| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Egyptologists have found the source material for the Book of Abraham to be nothing more than a common pagan Egyptian funerary text"
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| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "It has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham or anything Joseph claimed in his translation for the Book of Abraham"
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| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: Facsimile 1 "The Abraham scene is wrong"
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| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "The following image is what Facsimile 1 is really supposed to look like"
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| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "The following images show similar funerary scenes which have been discovered elsewhere in Egypt"
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| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "a side-by-side comparison of what Joseph Smith translated in Facsimile #2 versus what it actually says according to Egyptologists"
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| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith said that this is 'God sitting on his throne'. It’s actually Min, the pagan Egyptian god of fertility or sex"|Response to claim: "Joseph Smith said that this is 'God sitting on his throne'. It’s actually Min, the pagan Egyptian god of fertility or sex"
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| − | |document9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: Facsimile 3, "Joseph Smith’s translation of the papyri and facsimiles are gibberish"|Response to claim: Facsimile 3, "Joseph Smith’s translation of the papyri and facsimiles are gibberish"
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| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "Why are there anachronisms in the Book of Abraham? Chaldeans?"
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| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: "the sun gets its light from Kolob...The sun shines because of thermonuclear fusion; not because it gets its light from any other star"
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| − | |document12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "There’s a book published in 1830 by Thomas Dick entitled 'The Philosophy of the Future State'"
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| − | |document13=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "Elder Jeffrey R. Holland was directly asked about the papyri not matching the Book of Abraham in a March 2012 BBC interview"
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| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink15=Response to claim: "Is 'I don’t know and I don’t understand but it’s the word of God' really the best answer that a 'prophet, seer, and revelator' can come up with to such a profound problem?"
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| − | |document15=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
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| − | |sublink16=Response to claim: "The Church conceded in its July 2014 Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham essay that Joseph’s translations of the papyri and the facsimiles do not match what’s in the Book of Abraham" (October 2014 revision)
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| − | |document16=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
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| − | |sublink17=Citation abuse in Jeremy Runnells' Response and Rebuttal to Brian M. Hauglid's Rational Faiths Essay: B.H. Roberts comment on the Book of Abraham
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| − | |document17=Response and Rebuttal to Brian M. Hauglid's Rational Faiths Essay
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
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| − | {{SummaryItem
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| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Polygamy & Polyandry Concerns & Questions
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| − | |subject=Response to section "Polygamy/Polyandry Concerns & Questions"
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| − | |summary=Regarding Joseph's practice of polygamy, the author states that "Joseph Smith’s pattern of behavior or modus operandi for a period of at least 10 years of his adult life was to keep secrets, be deceptive, and be dishonest – both privately and publicly."
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| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith was married to at least 34 women"
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| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "Of those 34 women, 11 of them were married women of other living men"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Among them being Apostle Orson Hyde who was sent on his mission to dedicate Israel when Joseph secretly married his wife, Marinda Hyde"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph was 37-years-old when he married 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Even by 19th century standards, this is pedophilia"
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "The Church now admits that Joseph Smith married 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball in its October 2014 Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo essay"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "Among the women was a mother-daughter set and three sister sets"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "Some of the marriages to these women included promises by Joseph of eternal life to the girls and their families"
| |
| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "Some of the marriages to these women included....threats of loss of salvation"
| |
| − | |document9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "threats that he (Joseph) was going to be slain by an angel with a flaming sword if the girls didn’t marry him"
| |
| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "President Hinckley publicly stating that polygamy is not doctrinal"
| |
| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: "D&C 132 is unequivocal on the point that polygamy is permitted only 'to multiply and replenish the earth' and 'bear the souls of men'"
| |
| − | |document12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "These married women continued to live as husband and wife with their prior husband after marrying Joseph"
| |
| − | |document13=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one"
| |
| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink15=Response to claim: "Emma was unaware of most of Joseph’s plural marriages, at least until after the fact"
| |
| − | |document15=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | |sublink16=Response to claim: "She certainly did not consent to most of them as required by D&C 132"
| |
| − | |document16=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | |sublink17=Response to claim: "The Church’s new October 2014 Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo essay acknowledges that Joseph Smith was a polygamist"
| |
| − | |document17=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | |sublink18=Response to claim: "The following 1835 edition of Doctrine & Covenants revelations bans polygamy"
| |
| − | |document18=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink19=Response to claim: "Unions without the knowledge or consent of the husband, in cases of polyandry"
| |
| − | |document19=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink20=Response to claim: "Joseph’s marriage to Fanny Alger was described by Oliver Cowdery as a 'dirty, nasty, filthy affair'"
| |
| − | |document20=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink21=Response to claim: "Joseph was practicing polygamy before the sealing authority was given"
| |
| − | |document21=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink22=Response to claim: "A union with a newlywed and pregnant woman (Zina Huntingon)"
| |
| − | |document22=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink23=Response to claim: Zina "married Joseph after being told Joseph’s life was in danger from an angel with a flaming sword"
| |
| − | |document23=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink24=Response to claim: "there is no such thing as an insane polygamist god who demanded such sadistic, immoral, adulterous, despicable, and pedophilic behavior"
| |
| − | |document24=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink25=Response to claim: "The secrecy of the marriages and the private and public denials by Joseph Smith are not congruent with honest behavior"
| |
| − | |document25=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink26=Response to claim: "Joseph’s desire to keep this part of his life a secret is what ultimately contributed to his death when he ordered the destruction of the printing press"
| |
| − | |document26=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink27=Response to claim: "The Many Wives of Joseph Smith: 11 Polyandrous Marriages"
| |
| − | |document27=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink28=Response to claim: "Why is there no mention of God commanding Adam or Noah and/or their immediate male children to have many wives?"
| |
| − | |document28=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink29=Response to claim: "Latter-day 'prophet, seer, and revelator' Lorenzo Snow strongly disagrees with FairMormon"
| |
| − | |document29=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Prophets Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Prophets Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author expresses concern about changes in doctrine. For example, "As a believing member, I had no idea that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to black men. I’m supposed to go to the drawing board now and believe in a god who is not only a schizophrenic racist but who is inconsistent as well? Again, yesterday’s doctrine is today’s false doctrine. Yesterday’s 10 prophets are today’s heretics."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Brigham Young taught what is now known as 'Adam-God theory'. He taught that Adam is 'our Father and our God'"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "Yesterday's doctrine is today's false doctrine. Yesterday’s prophet is today’s heretic."
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Brigham Young said, 'The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.'"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "The same God who 'denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female' is the same God who denied blacks from the saving ordinances"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Jimmy Carter’s IRS threatening to revoke the Church’s tax-exempt status"
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "Of course, the revelation...has absolutely nothing to do with...Stanford and other universities boycotting BYU athletics"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "As a believing member, I had no idea that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to black men"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "FairMormon agrees and admits 'we do not know' while offering 3 different scenarios in their attempt to rationalize the ban"
| |
| − | |document8=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "FairMormon's above response got debunked by none other than the Church itself on December 6, 2013 when the Church released its new Race and the Priesthood essay"
| |
| − | |document9=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "We just need to edit out the racism and the 'black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse' stuff in the keystone Book of Mormon and we'll be set"
| |
| − | |document10=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "Mark Hofmann...to purchase and suppress bizarre and embarrassing documents into the Church vaults that undermined and threatened the Church’s story of its origins"
| |
| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: "Lack of discernment by the Brethren on such a grave threat to the Church"
| |
| − | |document12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "The following is Oaks’ 1985 defense of the fake Salamander letter (which Oaks evidently thought was real and legitimate at the time)"
| |
| − | |document13=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "Why would I want them following the prophet when a prophet is just a man of his time?"
| |
| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Kinderhook Plates and Translator & Seer Claims Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Kinderhook Plates and Translator/Seer Claims Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author claims that, "Joseph Smith made a scientific claim that he could translate ancient documents. This is a testable claim. Joseph failed the test with the Book of Abraham. He failed the test with the Kinderhook Plates."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith made a scientific claim that he could translate ancient documents. This is a testable claim"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "Joseph failed the test with the Book of Abraham"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "He failed the test with the Kinderhook Plates"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith was parading around and showing others the Egyptian hieroglyphics he copied off the gold plates around the same time as the discovery of the Kinderhook Plates"
| |
| − | |document4=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "This is consistent with the New York Herald’s non-Mormon’s account...which refers to Joseph’s copy of the hieroglyphics from the gold plates"
| |
| − | |document5=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "I’m now supposed to believe that Joseph has the credibility of translating the keystone Book of Mormon? With a rock in a hat?"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "Moroni’s 5,000 mile journey lugging the gold plates from Mesoamerica...all the way to New York to bury the plates"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "A rock he found digging in his neighbor’s property in 1822"
| |
| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "5 years before he got the gold plates and Urim and Thummim"
| |
| − | |document9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "the same stone and method Joseph used for his treasure hunting activities"
| |
| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "I'm sure he was wrong on only two out of three. After all, wouldn't you buy a third car from a man who had already sold you two clunkers?"
| |
| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, October 2014
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Testimony & Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Testimony/Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author asks the question, "Why is this Spirit so unreliable and inconsistent? How can I trust such an inconsistent and contradictory Source for knowing that Mormonism is worth betting my life, time, money, heart, mind, and obedience to?"
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Every major religion has members who claim the same thing: God or God’s spirit bore witness to them"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "it would likewise be arrogant of a Latter-day Saint to deny their spiritual experiences and testimonies of the truthfulness of their own religion"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "If God’s method to revealing truth is through feelings, it’s a pretty ineffective method"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith received a revelation, through the peep stone in his hat, to send Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Toronto, Canada for the sole purpose of selling the copyright of the Book of Mormon"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "I saw a testimony as more than just spiritual experiences and feelings. I saw that we had evidence and logic on our side based on the correlated narrative I was fed by the Church about its origins."
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "What about the members who felt the Spirit from Dunn’s fabricated and false stories?"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "how can they be sure of the reliability of this same exact process in telling them that Mormonism is true?"
| |
| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "I felt the Spirit watching 'Saving Private Ryan' and the 'Schindler’s List'. Both R-rated and horribly violent movies. I also felt the Spirit watching 'Forrest Gump' and the 'Lion King'."
| |
| − | |document9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "Why did I feel the Spirit as I listened to the stories of apostates sharing how they discovered for themselves that Mormonism is not true?"
| |
| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author states, "Like the First Vision story, none of the members of the Church or Joseph Smith’s family had ever heard prior to 1834 about a priesthood restoration from John the Baptist or Peter, James, and John. Although the priesthood is now taught to have been restored in 1829, Joseph and Oliver made no such claim until 1834. Why did it take five years for Joseph or Oliver to tell members of the Church about the priesthood?"
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "'The late appearance of these accounts raises the possibility of later fabrication.' – LDS Historian Richard Bushman"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "none of the members of the Church or Joseph Smith’s family had ever heard prior to 1834 about a priesthood restoration from John the Baptist or Peter, James, and John"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Why did it take five years for Joseph or Oliver to tell members of the Church about the priesthood?"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery did not teach anyone or record anything prior to 1834 that men ordained to offices in the Church were receiving 'priesthood authority'"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery changed the wording of earlier revelations when they compiled the 1835 Doctrine & Covenants"
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "adding verses about the appearances of John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John as if those appearances were mentioned in the earlier revelations"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "David Whitmer...'I never heard that an Angel had ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Aaronic Priesthood until the year 1834..."
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=Regarding the witnesses to the Book of Mormon, the author states, "At the end of the day? It all doesn’t matter. The Book of Mormon Witnesses and their testimonies of the gold plates are irrelevant. It does not matter whether eleven 19th century treasure diggers with magical worldviews saw some gold plates or not. It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith, his father, and his brother (Hyrum) had a family business treasure hunting from 1820 – 1827"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "Joseph was hired by folks like Josiah Stowell, who Joseph mentions in his history"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "In 1826, Joseph was arrested and brought to court in Bainbridge, New York, for trial on fraud"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "21st century Mormons...are so confused and bewildered when hearing stuff like Joseph Smith using a peep stone in a hat"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "If Oliver Cowdery’s gift was really a divining rod then this tells us that the origins of the Church are much more involved in folk magic and superstition"
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "who all shared a common worldview of second sight, magic, and treasure digging"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "Martin Harris was anything but a skeptical witness"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "he was known by many of his peers as an unstable, gullible, and superstitious man
| |
| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "Before Harris became a Mormon, he had already changed his religion at least five times"
| |
| − | |document9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "Harris continued this earlier pattern by joining and leaving 5 more different sects"
| |
| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: Martin Harris “declared repeatedly that he had as much evidence for a Shaker book he had as for the Book of Mormon”
| |
| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: Martin Harris "had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them"
| |
| − | |document12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith"
| |
| − | |document13=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "Why couldn’t Martin just simply answer 'yes'?"
| |
| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink15=Response to claim: "Whitmer responded that the angel 'had no appearance or shape'"
| |
| − | |document15=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink16=Response to claim: "James Henry Moyle...went away 'not fully satisfied...It was more spiritual than I anticipated'"
| |
| − | |document16=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink17=Response to claim: "As scribe for the Book of Mormon and cousin to Joseph Smith, there was a serious conflict of interest in Oliver being a witness"
| |
| − | |document17=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink18=Response to claim: "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock"
| |
| − | |document18=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink19=Response to claim: James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses
| |
| − | |document19=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink20=Response to claim: "Every witness name on that document is not signed; they are written in Oliver’s own handwriting"
| |
| − | |document20=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink21=Response to claim: "there is no testimony from any of the witnesses directly attesting to the direct wording and claims of the manuscript or statements in the Book of Mormon"
| |
| − | |document21=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink22=Response to claim: "FAIR again misses the point, which is that no original, signed document of the witnesses’ testimonies exists"
| |
| − | |document22=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink23=Response to claim: "God Himself spoke to Whitmer 'by his own voice from the heavens' in June 1838 commanding Whitmer to apostatize from the Lord’s one and only true Church"
| |
| − | |document23=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink24=Response to claim: "the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer"
| |
| − | |document24=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink25=Response to claim: "We’re talking about two families which consisted of all believing Mormons...Hardly unbiased and neutral"
| |
| − | |document25=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink26=Response to claim: "in light of their superstitions and reputations"
| |
| − | |document26=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink27=Response to claim: "The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, nineteenth-century men"
| |
| − | |document27=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink28=Response to claim: "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"
| |
| − | |document28=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink29=Response to claim: "Oliver Cowdery’s failure to expose the Priesthood restoration fraud during his excommunication proceedings and after his excommunication from the Church"
| |
| − | |document29=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink30=Citation abuse in the original Letter to a CES Director: Anthony Metcalf's Ten Years Before the Mast
| |
| − | |document30=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink31=Citation abuse in the original Letter to a CES Director: Stephen Burnett to Br. Johnson
| |
| − | |document31=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink32=Citation abuse in the original Letter to a CES Director: John Whitmer states that he saw the plates by a supernatural power
| |
| − | |document32=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author of the letter asks, "Does the eternal salvation, eternal happiness, and eternal sealings of families really depend on medieval originated Masonic rituals in multi-million dollar castles? Is God really going to separate good couples and their children who love one other and who want to be together in the next life because they object to uncomfortable and strange Masonic temple rituals and a polygamous heaven?" We respond to these questions in this article.
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "Just seven weeks after Joseph’s Masonic initiation, Joseph introduced the LDS endowment"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "We have the true Masonry"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "why doesn’t the LDS ceremony more closely resemble an earlier form of Masonry?"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Freemasonry has zero links to the Solomon’s temple"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "If there’s no connection to Solomon’s temple, what’s so divine about a man-made medieval Scottish secret fraternity and its rituals?"
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "Is God really going to require people to know secret tokens, handshakes, and signs to get into the Celestial Kingdom?"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "Does the eternal salvation, eternal happiness, and eternal sealings of families really depend on medieval originated Masonic rituals in multi-million dollar castles?"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "What does it say about the Church if it removed something that Joseph Smith said he restored?"
| |
| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "The entire endowment ceremony is an ordinance...FAIR knows that Joseph Smith taught that the endowment is not to be altered or changed"
| |
| − | |document9=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Science Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author concludes that "The problem Mormonism encounters is that so many of its claims are well within the realm of scientific study, and as such, can be proven or disproven. To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "To cling to faith in these areas, where the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the 'Fall of Adam'"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Science has proven that there was no worldwide flood 4,500 years ago"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood"
| |
| − | |document4=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "Other events/claims that science has discredited"
| |
| − | |document5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "the sun getting its light from Kolob"
| |
| − | |document6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "They carried honey bees across the ocean? Swarms of them?"
| |
| − | |document7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"
| |
| − | |document8=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely"
| |
| − | |document9=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Other Concerns & Questions
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Other Concerns & Questions"
| |
| − | |summary=The author notes that, "Under [Quentin L.] Cook’s counsel, FAIR and unofficial LDS apologetic websites are anti-Mormon sources that should be avoided. Not only do they introduce to Mormons 'internet materials that magnify, exaggerate, and in some cases invent shortcomings of early Church leaders' but they provide many ridiculous answers with logical fallacies and omissions while leaving members confused and hanging with a bizarre version of Mormonism."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: 2013 Official Declaration 2 Header Update Dishonesty
| |
| − | |document1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "The Church debunks FAIR and ironically contradicts its own 2013 Official Declaration 2 header with the release of its December 6, 2013 essay on Race and the Priesthood"
| |
| − | |document2=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "Zina Diantha Huntington Young"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Brigham Young Sunday School Manual...deceptive in disclosing whether or not Brigham Young was a polygamist"
| |
| − | |document4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: Brigham Young Sunday School Manual - "I never claimed that the quotes referred to Brigham Young’s own wives"
| |
| − | |document5=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink6=Response to claim: "the Church presents a monogamist Brigham Young in its Brigham Young manual"
| |
| − | |document6=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink7=Response to claim: "The manuals do teach history along with didactical lessons"
| |
| − | |document7=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink8=Response to claim: "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy"
| |
| − | |document8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink9=Response to claim: "The Church is not transparent to their members and investigators in 2014 about its origins and history"
| |
| − | |document9=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink10=Response to claim: "Something is fundamentally wrong with 'the one true Church' spending more on a multi-billion dollar high-end megamall than it has in 25 years of humanitarian aid"
| |
| − | |document10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink11=Response to claim: "Would a loving, kind, empathic God really place parents in the horrible position of having to choose whether to feed their children or pay what little they have to a multi-billion megamall owning Church...?"
| |
| − | |document11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink12=Response to claim: "Why did Joseph take the name of “Jesus Christ” out of the very name of His restored Church?"
| |
| − | |document12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink13=Response to claim: "Some things that are true are not very useful"
| |
| − | |document13=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink14=Response to claim: "Criticizing leaders"
| |
| − | |document14=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink15=Response to claim: "the scary internet"
| |
| − | |document15=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink16=Response to claim: "It is obvious that...Uchtdorf is focusing on the internet"
| |
| − | |document16=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink17=Response to claim: "Going after members who publish or share their questions, concerns, and doubts"
| |
| − | |document17=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink18=Response to claim: Strengthening the Church Members Committee
| |
| − | |document18=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink19=Response to claim: "When the prophet speaks the debate is over"
| |
| − | |document19=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink20=Response to claim: "The very idea that one single man can control and censor debate and the free flow of ideas and information is not only anti-intellectualism but anti-free agency as well"
| |
| − | |document20=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink21=Response to claim: "Policies and practices you’d expect to find in a totalitarian system such as North Korea or 1984; not from the gospel of Jesus Christ"
| |
| − | |document21=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | ==== ====
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Conclusion
| |
| − | |subject=Response to section "Conclusion"
| |
| − | |summary=The author concludes, "FAIR and these unofficial apologists have done more to destroy my testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could. I found their version of Mormonism to be alien and foreign to the Chapel Mormonism that I grew up in attending Church, seminary, reading scriptures, General Conferences, EFY, mission, and BYU. Their answers are not only contradictory to the scriptures and teachings I learned through correlated Mormonism…they’re truly bizarre."
| |
| − | |sublink1=Response to claim: "FairMormon says...'Googling is not a synonym for seeking'...This is like saying, 'The library is not a synonym for seeking'"
| |
| − | |document1=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink2=Response to claim: "Among the first sources I looked to for answers were official Church sources such as Mormon.org and LDS.org. I couldn’t find them."
| |
| − | |document2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink3=Response to claim: "FAIR and these unofficial apologists have done more to destroy my testimony than any anti-Mormon source ever could"
| |
| − | |document3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
| |
| − | |sublink4=Response to claim: "Once again, Google delivers where the Church does not"
| |
| − | |document4=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | |sublink5=Response to claim: "If one assumes that FAIR's undisputed silence is acceptance of the facts..."
| |
| − | |document5=Debunking FAIR's Debunking, July 2014
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | | |
| − | == ==
| |
| − | {{further information label}}
| |
| − | | |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Debunking FairMormon
| |
| − | |subject="Debunking FAIR’s Debunking" (also known as "Debunking FairMormon" - from the author of the Letter to a CES Director)
| |
| − | |summary=The author of the ''Letter to a CES Director'' spent approximately eight months and over 500 pages responding to FairMormon's analysis of the CES Letter. He calls this document "Debunking FairMormon". The document incorporates our original summary responses and the author responds line-by-line to reassert his original claims.
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| − | }}
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Citation abuse
| |
| − | |subject=Citation abuse associated with various revision of the ''Letter to a CES Director'' and associated documents by the same author.
| |
| − | |summary=Examples of citation abuse in the ''Letter to a CES Director'' which demonstrate quote mining and quote duplications in order to make the hostile quotes appear to be more numerous.
| |
| − | }}
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/An "open letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook
| |
| − | |subject=The author's "open letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook
| |
| − | |summary=Six months prior to writing the "Letter to a CES Director," the author posted an "Open Letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook in an online ex-Mormon forum. This "open letter" represents a good summary of the issues that he would later cover in the "CES letter."
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| − | }}
| |
| − | {{SummaryItem
| |
| − | |link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Attempts to "spread the word"
| |
| − | |subject=Attempts to "spread the word" about the CES Letter and media response.
| |
| − | |summary=Efforts to "spread the word" using the CES Letter involve vandalism and email spam.
| |
| − | }}
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| − | {{:Mormonism and apologetics/"ad hominem"/Case study/Jeremy Runnells}}
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| − | | |
| − | == ==
| |
| − | {{InterpreterBar
| |
| − | |link=http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay
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| − | |title=Eye of the Beholder, Law of the Harvest: Observations on the Inevitable Consequences of the Different Investigative Approaches of Jeremy Runnells and Jeff Lindsay
| |
| − | |author=Kevin Christensen
| |
| − | |authorlink=http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/kevinc/
| |
| − | |vol=10
| |
| − | |date=2014
| |
| − | |start=175
| |
| − | |end=238
| |
| − | |summary=In his Letter to a CES Director, Jeremy Runnells explains how a year of obsessive investigation brought about the loss of his testimony. In an LDS FAQ, LDS blogger Jeff Lindsay deals with all of the same questions, and has done so at least twenty years and has not only an intact testimony, but boundless enthusiasm. What makes the difference? In the parable of the Sower, Jesus explained that the same seeds (words) can generate completely different harvests, ranging from nothing to a hundred-fold increase, all depending on the different soil and nurture. This essay looks at how different expectations and inquiries for translation, prophets, key scriptural passages on representative issues can lead to very different outcomes for investigators.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | == ==
| |
| − | {{FairMormonBlogBar
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| − | |link=http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/05/20/coping-with-the-big-list-of-attacks-on-the-lds-faith/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fairldsblog+%28FAIR+Blog%29
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| − | |title=Coping with the “Big List” of Attacks on the LDS Faith
| |
| − | |author=Jeff Lindsay
| |
| − | |date=May 20, 2014
| |
| − | |summary=One of the challenges in defending one’s faith is coping with critics who use the “Big List” technique in their attack. This involves throwing out numerous arguments to create the impression of an overwhelming barrage that decimates the faith in question (see the related post, [http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2006/05/if-only-10-of-these-charges-are-true.html “If Only 10% of These Charges Are True…“]). The Big List is loaded with barbed questions that weren’t written in search of a real answer. If there is a good defense to the arguments raised at first, never mind, there are many more to be launched in different directions.
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| − | <br>
| |
| − | As with many topics in fields like history, science, and religion, the issues raised in Big List attacks are often complex and may require exploring abundant details to answer questions properly. Even for those who are prepared to answer questions on a wide variety of topics, the time it takes to lay a foundation and properly answer a question can be taken by the instantly impatient critics as an admission of weakness and confirmation that they are right, and then it’s time to move on to the next attack and the next. If reasonable answers are promptly provided for some attacks, or if the alleged weakness on further examination actually proves to be evidence in favor of the faithful position, the response can be ignored as new attacks from the Big List are hurled out.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | == ==
| |
| − | {{PerspectivesBar
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| − | |link=http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2014-fairmormon-conference/reflections-letter-ces-director
| |
| − | |title=Some Reflections On That Letter To a CES Director
| |
| − | |author=Daniel C. Peterson
| |
| − | |authorlink=http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/authors/peterson-daniel
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| − | |date=8 August 2014
| |
| − | |publication=Proceedings of the 2014 FairMormon Conference
| |
| − | |summary=Some of you don’t know what the “Letter to a CES Director” is. It’s a letter that’s been circulating online for about a year now…a year and a half, I think, as far as I know, that has gotten quite a bit of circulation. It’s a kind of compendium of standard critical arguments against the truth claims of the Church. ....I don’t object to the attempt in the “Letter to a CES Director” to subject the claims of Mormonism to reasoned examination. I just don’t think the effort went nearly far or deep enough.
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| − | }}
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| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | | |
| − | {{response format|name=Letter to a CES Director|number=580}}
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| − | {{endnotes sources}}
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| − | [[en:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director]]
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| − | [[es:La crítica del mormonismo/Documentos en línea/Carta a un Director del SEI]]
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| − | [[pt:A crítica do mormonismo/Documentos online/Carta a um Director SEI]]
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| − | | |
| − | [[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]
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