Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director"

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#REDIRECT[[Overview of the CES Letter]]
{{H1
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director
 
|H=Response to "Letter to a CES Director" and "Debunking FAIR's Debunking"(Debunking FairMormon)
 
|S=''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' is an online document which is critical of Latter-day Saint truth claims. The document is comprised of a list of issues that the author states caused him to lose his testimony, and it is hosted on a number of websites which are critical of the Church. The online document ''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'' or ''Debunking FairMormon'' is an apologetic attempt by the CES Letter author to respond to an earlier summary version of FairMormon's CES Letter response. The author incorporates much of the text of FairMormon's original summary responses and then attempts to, in his own words, "debunk" them. Here we have incorporated all arguments from all three updates to the CES Letter and responded to them. We have also included a few responses to Debunking FairMormon. Some responses may not be linked but may be found by searching for them. We have continued to add responses to certain arguments from both the original CES Letter and "Debunking FairMormon" over time.
 
 
 
The immature and sarcastic tone that plagued the original CES Letter has had a tendency to make it less accessible to what ex-Mormons refer to as "TBMs" (True Believing Mormons). On occasions when the CES Letter has proven ineffective at reaching "TBMs", ex-Mormons wishing to deconvert their family members have been turning to similar but more mature ex-Mormon treatments of the same subjects. One of the currently popular alternatives to the CES Letter is an anonymously authored letter called "For my Wife and Children," frequently referred to as "Letter to My Wife". (See FairMormon's response to this letter here: [[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/For my Wife and Children (Letter to my Wife)|Response to "For my Wife and Children" ("Letter to my Wife")]]).
 
 
 
The author as of October 2017 has updated the CES Letter to be more mature in tone now but, with the exception of the removal of the "Scriptures" section, incorporates the same arguments into it which are addressed in articles already written on this wiki. Thus we will not be linking any material from it here.
 
 
 
Readers should bear in mind while interacting with any of the material from the author of the CES Letter that he frequently attempts to portray FairMormon and other apologists as delusional and deceitful--frequently citing changes we have made to our responses in his rebuttals to FairMormon and often appealing to ridicule. He claims to have screenshots of our original responses linked to on his website yet every link that one follows to these supposed changes yields only a 404 page that states "404 All Evidence of this Page is Non-Existent. Just like steel, horses, wheat, and Lamanite DNA."<ref>Written 20 September 2019. The author may provide such things in the future yet at this time he hasn't done so.</ref> He often tries to discredit apologists by simply showing how we disagree on matters such as Book of Mormon Geography or other trivial things. Readers should be careful to look for this and be aware of [https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_How_does_FairMormon_respond_to_criticism%3F how FairMormon responds to criticism.]
 
 
 
It is true that we have changed our responses and added other responses to arguments from the CES Letter over time. This is the refining we expect to receive as we make the defense of the Church better through more study, improved scholarship, and through suggestions from readers like you. We may also make mistakes in formulating our response (which we have corrected in their majority) but we have not sought to deliberately deceive anyone. Readers should also be aware that just because FairMormon hasn't responded to an argument or a response does not satisfy a question completely, that does not the mean that the apologetic endeavor in that respect is therefore bunk. We are simply a group of volunteer members who seek to defend the faith in our spare time and write however much we can with that time and when we see it as necessary. We expect to improve our efforts over time. With respect to disagreement, there are often many ways to faithfully reconcile something. FairMormon's goal is to provide every angle. Additionally, the nature of scholarship is to make arguments based upon findings. Scholarship refines itself overtime and with it apologetics. Finally, the existence of disagreement does not invalidate the strength of an argument. Readers should read the different sides for themselves on matters like Book of Mormon geography and decide for themselves what has more strength. Readers should read all scholarship relating to historicity of the Book of Mormon in the same way and not accept obfuscating statements like these that attempt to dismiss the enterprise wholesale (likely without reading all of the scholarship that has been done on the issue).
 
 
 
A couple of things we wish to warn readers about:
 
 
 
The CES Letter is a compilation of the most common attacks on the Church. Each of these issues have been repeatedly discussed in both official Church literature and in scholarly articles, notes, and monographs. A monograph could be taken to explain these issues and explain them with precision in a faithful way. We advise readers to use FairMormon as a starting point rather than an ending. Scholarship will continue to grow. The wiki is designed as your first stop for getting immediate first aid, as it were. It may be thus advisable that, instead of reading this 1200+ page response that readers take time to order books, read slowly, and digest at a pace that is more suitable to schedules, level of knowledge, and so forth.
 
 
 
If this is your first time visiting FairMormon we invite you to see our introduction page found [https://www.fairmormon.org/about/ here]. We strongly encourage the reader to also visit our  [https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_apologetics introductory page to apologetics] before reading our response. Debate uses the language of logical fallacy often. If you are not familiar with logical fallacy or at least need a definition for one or more of the logical fallacies listed in our response, we strongly encourage you to visit our [https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Logical_fallacies logical fallacy page] (preferably before reading our response). It will help you to evaluate claims better and make good suggestions as to how we can improve our responses. If you do not understand something in our response, you spot an error, an answer could be augmented or improved, a response could be provided to a claim that we have missed, or if you have any question(s) and/or comment(s) regarding this document, we invite you to submit your question(s)/make your comment(s) to FairMormon volunteers at [https://www.fairmormon.org/contact this link].
 
 
 
The following links respond to individual claims contained in the following documents:
 
*'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' (April 2013)'''
 
*'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'' (a.k.a. ''Debunking FairMormon'') (July 2014)'''
 
*'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' (October 2014)'''
 
*'''Jeremy Runnells, ''Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony'' (March 2015)'''
 
}}
 
[[File:Chart CES Letter summary061018.png|center|frame]]
 
<onlyinclude>
 
{{H2
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director
 
|H=Response to claims made in "Letter to a CES Director" and "Debunking FAIR's Debunking" by Jeremy Runnells
 
|L1=Response to section "Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions"
 
|L2=Response to section "Book of Mormon Translation Concerns & Questions"
 
|L3=Response to section "First Vision Concerns & Questions"
 
|L4=Response to section "Book of Abraham Concerns & Questions"
 
|L5=Response to section "Polygamy/Polyandry Concerns & Questions"
 
|L6=Response to section "Prophets Concerns & Questions"
 
|L7=Response to section "Kinderhook Plates and Translator/Seer Claims Concerns & Questions"
 
|L8=Response to section "Testimony/Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions"
 
|L9=Response to section "Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions"
 
|L10=Response to section "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"
 
|L11=Response to section "Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions"
 
|L12=Response to section "Science Concerns & Questions"
 
|L13=Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
 
|L14=Response to section "Other Concerns & Questions"
 
|L15=Response to section "Conclusion"
 
}}
 
</onlyinclude>
 
==Other responses to the "Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony"==
 
 
 
*Highly Recommended: [https://canonizer.com/files/reply.pdf "A Faithful Reply to the CES Letter from a Former CES Employee"] (PDF)
 
[[File:Jim bennett response to CES Letter cover 2018.png|center|thumb|200px|A Faithful Reply to the CES Letter from a Former CES Employee, by Jim Bennett (2018)]]
 
*Also highly recommended: An alternative response in the form of an annotated PDF of the March 31st revision of the Letter is also available at the following link: [http://debunking-cesletter.com "Letter to a CES Director : A Closer Look"].
 
[[File:Brian hales CES Letter a Closer Look cover.png|center|thumb|200px|Letter to a CES Director: A Closer Look]]
 
 
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Book of Mormon Translation Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/First Vision Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Book of Abraham Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Polygamy & Polyandry Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Prophets Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Kinderhook Plates and Translator & Seer Claims Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Testimony & Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Science Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Other Concerns & Questions}}
 
{{:Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Conclusion}}
 
 
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Debunking FairMormon
 
|subject="Debunking FAIR’s Debunking" (also known as "Debunking FairMormon" - from the author of the Letter to a CES Director)
 
|summary=The author of the ''Letter to a CES Director'' spent approximately eight months and over 500 pages responding to FairMormon's analysis of the CES Letter. He calls this document "Debunking FairMormon". The document incorporates our original summary responses and the author responds line-by-line to reassert his original claims.
 
}}
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Citation abuse
 
|subject=Citation abuse associated with various revision of the ''Letter to a CES Director'' and associated documents by the same author.
 
|summary=Examples of citation abuse in the ''Letter to a CES Director'' which demonstrate quote mining and quote duplications in order to make the hostile quotes appear to be more numerous.
 
}}
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/An "open letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook
 
|subject=The author's "open letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook
 
|summary=Six months prior to writing the "Letter to a CES Director," the author posted an "Open Letter" to Elder Quentin L. Cook in an online ex-Mormon forum. This "open letter" represents a good summary of the issues that he would later cover in the "CES letter."
 
}}
 
{{SummaryItem
 
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Attempts to "spread the word"
 
|subject=Attempts to "spread the word" about the CES Letter and media response.
 
|summary=Efforts to "spread the word" using the CES Letter involve vandalism and email spam.
 
}}
 
{{:Mormonism and apologetics/"ad hominem"/Case study/Jeremy Runnells}}
 
 
 
{{InterpreterBar
 
|link=http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay
 
|title=Eye of the Beholder, Law of the Harvest: Observations on the Inevitable Consequences of the Different Investigative Approaches of Jeremy Runnells and Jeff Lindsay
 
|author=Kevin Christensen
 
|authorlink=http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/kevinc/
 
|vol=10
 
|date=2014
 
|start=175
 
|end=238
 
|summary=In his Letter to a CES Director, Jeremy Runnells explains how a year of obsessive investigation brought about the loss of his testimony. In an LDS FAQ, LDS blogger Jeff Lindsay deals with all of the same questions, and has done so at least twenty years and has not only an intact testimony, but boundless enthusiasm. What makes the difference? In the parable of the Sower, Jesus explained that the same seeds (words) can generate completely different harvests, ranging from nothing to a hundred-fold increase, all depending on the different soil and nurture. This essay looks at how different expectations and inquiries for translation, prophets, key scriptural passages on representative issues can lead to very different outcomes for investigators.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{FairMormonBlogBar
 
|link=https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2014/05/20/coping-with-the-big-list-of-attacks-on-the-lds-faith
 
|title=Coping with the “Big List” of Attacks on the LDS Faith
 
|author=Jeff Lindsay
 
|date=May 20, 2014
 
|summary=One of the challenges in defending one’s faith is coping with critics who use the “Big List” technique in their attack. This involves throwing out numerous arguments to create the impression of an overwhelming barrage that decimates the faith in question (see the related post, [http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2006/05/if-only-10-of-these-charges-are-true.html “If Only 10% of These Charges Are True…“]). The Big List is loaded with barbed questions that weren’t written in search of a real answer. If there is a good defense to the arguments raised at first, never mind, there are many more to be launched in different directions.
 
<br>
 
As with many topics in fields like history, science, and religion, the issues raised in Big List attacks are often complex and may require exploring abundant details to answer questions properly. Even for those who are prepared to answer questions on a wide variety of topics, the time it takes to lay a foundation and properly answer a question can be taken by the instantly impatient critics as an admission of weakness and confirmation that they are right, and then it’s time to move on to the next attack and the next. If reasonable answers are promptly provided for some attacks, or if the alleged weakness on further examination actually proves to be evidence in favor of the faithful position, the response can be ignored as new attacks from the Big List are hurled out.
 
}}
 
 
 
{{PerspectivesBar
 
|link=http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2014-fairmormon-conference/reflections-letter-ces-director
 
|title=Some Reflections On That Letter To a CES Director
 
|author=Daniel C. Peterson
 
|authorlink=http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/authors/peterson-daniel
 
|date=8 August 2014
 
|publication=Proceedings of the 2014 FairMormon Conference
 
|summary=Some of you don’t know what the “Letter to a CES Director” is. It’s a letter that’s been circulating online for about a year now…a year and a half, I think, as far as I know, that has gotten quite a bit of circulation. It’s a kind of compendium of standard critical arguments against the truth claims of the Church. ....I don’t object to the attempt in the “Letter to a CES Director” to subject the claims of Mormonism to reasoned examination. I just don’t think the effort went nearly far or deep enough.
 
}}
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
{{response format|name=Letter to a CES Director|number=580}}
 
{{endnotes sources}}
 
 
 
{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
 
|title="Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony" and "Debunking FairMormon"
 
|author=Jeremy Runnells
 
|noauthor=
 
|section=
 
|previous=
 
|next=
 
|notes=
 
}}
 
{{parabreak}}
 
 
 
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[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]
 
 
 
[[es:La crítica del mormonismo/Documentos en línea/Carta a un Director del SEI]]
 
[[pt:A crítica do mormonismo/Documentos online/Carta a um Diretor SEI]]
 

Latest revision as of 17:53, 5 February 2024