FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Debunking FairMormon"
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==Overview== | ==Overview== | ||
| − | Approximately eight or nine months after we produced our original response to the ''Letter to a CES Director'', the author produced an apologetic called ''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'', later changed to ''Debunking FairMormon''. Much of the material is simply an incorporation of our original summary responses to the individual issues, and the author's reassertion of his original claims. | + | Approximately eight or nine months after we produced our original response to the ''Letter to a CES Director'', the author produced an apologetic called ''Debunking FAIR's Debunking'', later changed to ''Debunking FairMormon''. Much of the material is simply an incorporation of our original summary responses to the individual issues, and the author's reassertion of his original claims. We have updated the original article responses to incorporate new evidence that the author of the CES Letter marshaled to attempt to bolster his original claims. Additionally, we have responded to new claims that appeared from the author that were not included in neither the original CES Letter, our response to it, nor the subsequent editions of the CES Letter. In this page we will highlight only new individual items which were not covered in the original CES Letter response (but as stated before, we have updated other articles to respond to other evidence covering the same claims). For convenience, these responses to ''Debunking FairMormon'' are also included in the list of responses to the original, and various updates, of the CES Letter. |
==Detailed responses to {{DebunkingFM}} by section are found in linked subarticles below== | ==Detailed responses to {{DebunkingFM}} by section are found in linked subarticles below== | ||
| Line 29: | Line 29: | ||
|L4=Response to claim: "If Joseph was trying to make the Bible more correct, he would not change something that was correct according to Isaiah" | |L4=Response to claim: "If Joseph was trying to make the Bible more correct, he would not change something that was correct according to Isaiah" | ||
|L5=Response to claim: "FairMormon’s strawman that these towns/cities were discovered only through maps may not be...how Holley found some of the towns" | |L5=Response to claim: "FairMormon’s strawman that these towns/cities were discovered only through maps may not be...how Holley found some of the towns" | ||
| + | |L6=Response to claim: "The overwhelming consensus from these unbiased experts in pre-Columbian America archaeology/anthropology and Egyptology is that neither the Book of Mormon nor the Book of Abraham is historical, factual, or congruent to the current and existing data and evidence." | ||
| + | |L7=Response to claim: "In addition to the statements made by those professors, here are some more statements made by both LDS and non-LDS archaeologist and anthropologist individuals and organizations...'While some people chose to make claims for the Book of Mormon through archaeological evidences, to me they are made prematurely, and without sufficient knowledge.'" | ||
| + | |L8=Response to claim:"In addition to the statements made by those professors, here are some more statements made by both LDS and non-LDS archaeologist and anthropologist individuals and organizations...'The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists…." | ||
| + | |L9=Response to claim: "There was a book published in 1791 by John Walker entitled, A Key to the Classical Pronunciation of Greek, Latin, and Scripture Proper Names" | ||
| + | |L10=Response to claim: "'They borrowed from early 19th century Methodist evangelical camp meetings and the Second Great Awakening in Joseph's 'burnt over district' backyard" | ||
| + | |L11=Response to claim: "'They borrowed from anti-Masonic sentiments of Joseph's time." | ||
| + | |L12=Response to claim: "FairMormon considers a tapir to satisfy this requirement, I’m sorry but that just won’t work. Tapirs do not pull chariots. Especially chariots without wheels" | ||
}} | }} | ||
| Line 51: | Line 58: | ||
|L6=Response to claim: "Again, Joseph's mother, Lucy, and Joseph's brother, William, both stated that the family joined Presbyterianism after Alvin's death in November 1823" | |L6=Response to claim: "Again, Joseph's mother, Lucy, and Joseph's brother, William, both stated that the family joined Presbyterianism after Alvin's death in November 1823" | ||
|L7=Response to claim: "Joseph Fielding Smith, upon discovering the 1832 account, ripped out the pages out of the letter book" | |L7=Response to claim: "Joseph Fielding Smith, upon discovering the 1832 account, ripped out the pages out of the letter book" | ||
| + | |L8=Response to claim: "Why doesn't FairMormon also include the following accounts in their list showing just how “consistent” all of the First Vision accounts are?" | ||
| + | |L9=Response to claim: "For something that excited the “public mind against me”… where are the records?" | ||
| + | |L10=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith's theophany, or First Vision account, was not unprecedented or unique." | ||
| + | |L11=Response to claim: "...the following is what LDS historian and member of the Joseph Smith Papers project, Ronald O. Barney, has to say about Fawn Brodie and her book, No Man Knows My History...Richard Bushman extensively used No Man Knows My History as a source in his Rough Stone Rolling biography of Joseph Smith." | ||
}} | }} | ||
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|subject=Response to section "Prophets Concerns & Questions" | |subject=Response to section "Prophets Concerns & Questions" | ||
|summary= | |summary= | ||
| − | |L1=Response to claim: "FairMormon agrees and admits 'we do not know' while offering 3 different scenarios in their attempt to rationalize the ban" | + | |L1=Response to claim: "Brigham declared that he never preached a sermon that the 'children of men may not call scripture.'" |
| − | | | + | |L2=Response to claim: "FairMormon agrees and admits 'we do not know' while offering 3 different scenarios in their attempt to rationalize the ban" |
| − | | | + | |L3=Response to claim: "FairMormon's above response got debunked by none other than the Church itself on December 6, 2013 when the Church released its new Race and the Priesthood essay" |
| + | |L4=Response to claim: "We just need to edit out the racism and the 'black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse' stuff in the keystone Book of Mormon and we'll be set" | ||
}} | }} | ||
| Line 85: | Line 97: | ||
|summary= | |summary= | ||
|L1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith was parading around and showing others the Egyptian hieroglyphics he copied off the gold plates around the same time as the discovery of the Kinderhook Plates" | |L1=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith was parading around and showing others the Egyptian hieroglyphics he copied off the gold plates around the same time as the discovery of the Kinderhook Plates" | ||
| + | |L2=Response to claim: "This is consistent with the New York Herald’s non-Mormon’s account...which refers to Joseph’s copy of the hieroglyphics from the gold plates" | ||
}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ||
==== ==== | ==== ==== | ||
{{SummaryItem | {{SummaryItem | ||
| Line 92: | Line 105: | ||
|subject=Response to section "Testimony/Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions" | |subject=Response to section "Testimony/Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions" | ||
|summary= | |summary= | ||
| − | |L1= | + | |L1=Response to claim: "Let's play a game! Try to match Atheism and these 8 religions to the following 21 quotes." |
| + | |L2=Response to claim: "Even prophets are often wrong." | ||
| + | }} | ||
==== ==== | ==== ==== | ||
{{SummaryItem | {{SummaryItem | ||
| Line 98: | Line 113: | ||
|subject=Response to section "Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions" | |subject=Response to section "Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions" | ||
|summary= | |summary= | ||
| − | |L1= | + | |L1=Response to claim: "If Joseph was already an elder and apostle, what was the necessity of being ordained again?" |
| − | }} | + | }} |
| − | |||
==== ==== | ==== ==== | ||
{{SummaryItem | {{SummaryItem | ||
| Line 126: | Line 140: | ||
|L1=Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood" | |L1=Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood" | ||
|L2=Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?" | |L2=Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?" | ||
| − | |L3=Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely" | + | |L3=Response to claim: "Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ." |
| + | |L4=Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely" | ||
}} | }} | ||
Latest revision as of 14:19, 13 April 2024
FAIR Answers—back to home page
A FairMormon Analysis of "Debunking FAIR’s Debunking" (also known as "Debunking FairMormon" - from the author of the Letter to a CES Director)
| A FAIR Analysis of: Letter to a CES Director, a work by author: Jeremy Runnells
|
Does FairMormon agree with a large percentage of the claims made in the Letter to the CES Director?
Jeremy Runnells has claimed that FairMormon has agreed with him on a large percentage of various claims he has made, even going so far as to claim agreement on items that FairMormon did not respond to. With regard to historical facts, Mr. Runnells's citations are sometimes incorrect and his interpretations, even of correctly cited historical facts, are unwarranted. In short, FairMormon disagrees entirely with the conclusions reached by Jeremy Runnells.
Overview
Approximately eight or nine months after we produced our original response to the Letter to a CES Director, the author produced an apologetic called Debunking FAIR's Debunking, later changed to Debunking FairMormon. Much of the material is simply an incorporation of our original summary responses to the individual issues, and the author's reassertion of his original claims. We have updated the original article responses to incorporate new evidence that the author of the CES Letter marshaled to attempt to bolster his original claims. Additionally, we have responded to new claims that appeared from the author that were not included in neither the original CES Letter, our response to it, nor the subsequent editions of the CES Letter. In this page we will highlight only new individual items which were not covered in the original CES Letter response (but as stated before, we have updated other articles to respond to other evidence covering the same claims). For convenience, these responses to Debunking FairMormon are also included in the list of responses to the original, and various updates, of the CES Letter.
Detailed responses to "Debunking FAIR’s Debunking" (also known as "Debunking FairMormon" - from the author of the Letter to a CES Director) by section are found in linked subarticles below
Response to section "Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "That the witnesses never reported Joseph looking at a 1769 KJV Bible during the translation process actually enhances the likelihood that the Book of Mormon is a fraud"
- Response to claim: "At worst, Joseph waited until the witnesses weren't around to consult and copy from the 1769 KJV Bible"
- Response to claim: "Contrary to FairMormon’s assertion above that God himself revealed the 1769 KJV errors to Joseph, FairMormon is conceding here that Joseph copied KJV text over to the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "If Joseph was trying to make the Bible more correct, he would not change something that was correct according to Isaiah"
- Response to claim: "FairMormon’s strawman that these towns/cities were discovered only through maps may not be...how Holley found some of the towns"
- Response to claim: "The overwhelming consensus from these unbiased experts in pre-Columbian America archaeology/anthropology and Egyptology is that neither the Book of Mormon nor the Book of Abraham is historical, factual, or congruent to the current and existing data and evidence."
- Response to claim: "In addition to the statements made by those professors, here are some more statements made by both LDS and non-LDS archaeologist and anthropologist individuals and organizations...'While some people chose to make claims for the Book of Mormon through archaeological evidences, to me they are made prematurely, and without sufficient knowledge.'"
- Response to claim:"In addition to the statements made by those professors, here are some more statements made by both LDS and non-LDS archaeologist and anthropologist individuals and organizations...'The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists…."
- Response to claim: "There was a book published in 1791 by John Walker entitled, A Key to the Classical Pronunciation of Greek, Latin, and Scripture Proper Names"
- Response to claim: "'They borrowed from early 19th century Methodist evangelical camp meetings and the Second Great Awakening in Joseph's 'burnt over district' backyard"
- Response to claim: "'They borrowed from anti-Masonic sentiments of Joseph's time."
- Response to claim: "FairMormon considers a tapir to satisfy this requirement, I’m sorry but that just won’t work. Tapirs do not pull chariots. Especially chariots without wheels"
Response to section "Book of Mormon Translation Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "Sources that I clearly demonstrate were either unofficial, extremely obscure, or not clearly educating the member and investigator about the rock in the hat translation"
- Response to claim: "The issue here is the Church's continued displaying - still in 2014 - the incorrect, inaccurate, and deceptive art in its Conference Center, Church History Museum, Temple Square, Missionary publications, and official publications"
Response to section "First Vision Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "he still manages to directly contradict himself by reporting “visitation of Angels” as compared to an actual visitation from Deity"
- Response to claim: "Joseph intended the exact wording to be 'pillar of light' – not 'pillar of fire'"
- Response to claim: "FairMormon is arguing here that Joseph Smith did not in fact see God the Father and his son Jesus Christ, which is an apostate view"
- Response to claim: "the Church altered Joseph's words to instead read "I received my First Vision...” in the History of the Church"
- Response to claim: "FairMormon and apologists have to do everything they can to stretch the 1817-1818 Revival as long as possible - all the way into 1820"
- Response to claim: "Again, Joseph's mother, Lucy, and Joseph's brother, William, both stated that the family joined Presbyterianism after Alvin's death in November 1823"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Fielding Smith, upon discovering the 1832 account, ripped out the pages out of the letter book"
- Response to claim: "Why doesn't FairMormon also include the following accounts in their list showing just how “consistent” all of the First Vision accounts are?"
- Response to claim: "For something that excited the “public mind against me”… where are the records?"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith's theophany, or First Vision account, was not unprecedented or unique."
- Response to claim: "...the following is what LDS historian and member of the Joseph Smith Papers project, Ronald O. Barney, has to say about Fawn Brodie and her book, No Man Knows My History...Richard Bushman extensively used No Man Knows My History as a source in his Rough Stone Rolling biography of Joseph Smith."
Response to section "Polygamy/Polyandry Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
Response to section "Prophets Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "Brigham declared that he never preached a sermon that the 'children of men may not call scripture.'"
- Response to claim: "FairMormon agrees and admits 'we do not know' while offering 3 different scenarios in their attempt to rationalize the ban"
- Response to claim: "FairMormon's above response got debunked by none other than the Church itself on December 6, 2013 when the Church released its new Race and the Priesthood essay"
- Response to claim: "We just need to edit out the racism and the 'black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse' stuff in the keystone Book of Mormon and we'll be set"
Response to section "Kinderhook Plates and Translator/Seer Claims Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith was parading around and showing others the Egyptian hieroglyphics he copied off the gold plates around the same time as the discovery of the Kinderhook Plates"
- Response to claim: "This is consistent with the New York Herald’s non-Mormon’s account...which refers to Joseph’s copy of the hieroglyphics from the gold plates"
Response to section "Testimony/Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "Let's play a game! Try to match Atheism and these 8 religions to the following 21 quotes."
- Response to claim: "Even prophets are often wrong."
Response to section "Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
Response to section "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "FAIR again misses the point, which is that no original, signed document of the witnesses’ testimonies exists"
- Response to claim: "God Himself spoke to Whitmer 'by his own voice from the heavens' in June 1838 commanding Whitmer to apostatize from the Lord’s one and only true Church"
- Response to claim: "We’re talking about two families which consisted of all believing Mormons...Hardly unbiased and neutral"
Response to section "Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
Response to section "Science Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "This doesn’t stop FAIR from acknowledging and admitting to the impossibility of Noah’s Ark and the global flood"
- Response to claim: "Does the lack of an explicit statement that they took their prized bees onboard their submarines to the Promised Land necessarily mean they didn't?"
- Response to claim: "Apparently Joseph forgot that he claimed Adam saw God face to face (God of the OT being Jesus). It’s also implied that Seth, Cain, and Enoch did as well. All of this contradicts the claim that the Brother of Jared is the first person to see the spirit body of Christ."
- Response to claim: "A beheaded man doing a pushup and trying to breathe? Not likely"
Response to section "Other Concerns & Questions"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "The Church debunks FAIR and ironically contradicts its own 2013 Official Declaration 2 header with the release of its December 6, 2013 essay on Race and the Priesthood"
- Response to claim: Brigham Young Sunday School Manual - "I never claimed that the quotes referred to Brigham Young’s own wives"
- Response to claim: "the Church presents a monogamist Brigham Young in its Brigham Young manual"
- Response to claim: "The manuals do teach history along with didactical lessons"
- Response to claim: "The Church is not transparent to their members and investigators in 2014 about its origins and history"
- Response to claim: "It is obvious that...Uchtdorf is focusing on the internet"
- Response to claim: "The very idea that one single man can control and censor debate and the free flow of ideas and information is not only anti-intellectualism but anti-free agency as well"
Response to section "Conclusion"
Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "FairMormon says...'Googling is not a synonym for seeking'...This is like saying, 'The library is not a synonym for seeking'"
- Response to claim: "Once again, Google delivers where the Church does not"
- Response to claim: "If one assumes that FAIR's undisputed silence is acceptance of the facts..."
Notes