Difference between revisions of "Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures"
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|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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|L=Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures
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|H=Response to "Letter to a CES Director: Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
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|H=Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures
 
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|H=Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
 
|H=Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"
 
|S=The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."
 
|S=The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."
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|L1=Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"
+
|L1= Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."
 
|D1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 
|D1=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L2=Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"
+
|L2=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"
 
|D2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 
|D2=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L3=Response to claim: "Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"
+
|L3=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"
 
|D3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 
|D3=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
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|L4=Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"
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|L4=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"
 
|D4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 
|D4=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L5=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"
 +
|D5=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L6=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"
 +
|D6=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L7=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"
 +
|D7=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L8=Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"
 +
|D8=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L9=Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"
 +
|D9=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L10=Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"
 +
|D10=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L11=Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"
 +
|D11=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 +
|L12=Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"
 +
|D12=Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony, April 2013
 
}}
 
}}
 
</onlyinclude>
 
</onlyinclude>
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{{Back to top}}
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."==
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{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim= To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...
 +
[…]
 +
<br><br>
 +
As a believing Mormon, I tried to rationalize some of the craziness by saying, “Oh, this is in the crazy Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in force.  Christ came and fulfilled the Law of Moses.”
 +
<br><br>
 +
The problem with this is that the crazy god of the Old Testament was Jehovah.  Who’s Jehovah?  The premortal Jesus Christ.  So, Christ is the crazy god of the Old Testament.  The Christ of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are light years different.
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda| The author has many concerns about the scriptures. None of the things listed are "endorsed" by God. There are several things that can be misunderstood about the scriptures that can cause concern without a proper framework to view them through. Without it, it is easy to be bogged down by how critics misrepresent and misunderstand the scriptures. At the beginning of this section from the author, we give a suggested hermeneutic for viewing these things from the scriptures. It can show a unified purpose to some of that "craziness" in the Bible.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 +
}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: How can one best read and understand the scriptures?]]
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*[[Question: How can one approach reconciling confusing, seemingly disturbing, or otherwise troubling texts from the scriptures?]]
 +
*[[Question: Why does God act so violently in scripture and especially the Old Testament?]]
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{{Back to top}}
  
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<!--
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==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"==
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====Response to claim: D&C 132====
 
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim=The author states, "I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed”. Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed."
+
|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...4. Exodus 12:12...7. Numbers 21: 5-9...
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda| These are hard scriptures to understand. These are addressed in articles or articles ''linked'' to those articles below.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 +
}}
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: How can one properly view scriptural texts that appear to endorse genocide, pillage, and plunder in the Bible?]]
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*[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse murder?]]
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{{Back to top}}
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 +
==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"==
 +
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 +
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
 +
|claim= To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 +
}}
 +
 
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Did God endorse rape in the Old Testament?]]
 +
*[[Question: Are the scriptures misogynistic/sexist?]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
 +
 
 +
==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"==
 +
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 +
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
 +
|claim="To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 +
}}
 +
 
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: What is the best way to understand servitude in the Old and New Testaments?]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
 +
 
 +
==Response to claim:  "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"==
 +
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 +
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
 +
|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 +
}}
 +
 
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Do the scriptures promote racism?]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
 +
 
 +
==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"==
 +
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 +
|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
 +
|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
}}
 
}}
  
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====Response to claim: Numbers 31====
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'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Does the Bible endorse human sacrifice?]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
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 +
==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"==
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
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|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
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|title=Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision)
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|claim=The author states the following regarding Numbers 31:<br>
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|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse
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"This is truly despicable behavior from God and Moses.  Under God’s direction, Moses’ army defeats the Midianites.  They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive.  When Moses learns that they left some alive, he angrily says:  “Have you saved all the women alive?  Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.  But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”  So they went back and did as Moses – the Lord’s prophet – commanded, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way, they got 32,000 virgins."
+
}}
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|answer=
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{{propaganda| The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
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*The story of the Moses and the Midianites sounds horrific. However, there appears to be a reason why Moses commanded that they be killed. There are indications that Moses viewed the Midianites as being responsible for a plague which was caused by having sexual relations with those individuals ("the matter of Peor"). Note how Moses issued extensive instructions for the purification of anyone or ''anything'' coming into contact with these people. The following verses from Numbers 31:
+
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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<blockquote>
 
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15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
 
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<br><br>
 
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16 <span style="color:blue">Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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17 <span style="color:blue">Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
 
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<br><br>
 
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19 <span style="color:blue">And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.</span>
 
−
<br><br>
 
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20 <span style="color:blue">And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.</span>
 
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<br><br>
 
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21 ¶And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;
 
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<br><br>
 
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22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
 
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<br><br>
 
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23 <span style="color:blue">Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.</span>
 
−
<br><br>
 
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24 <span style="color:blue">And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.</span>
 
−
</blockquote>
 
−
*Regarding "the matter of Peor," here is what the Wikipedia article "Hersay of Peor" states regarding the plague:
 
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<blockquote>
 
−
According to the Torah, the Israelites, after spending a short time in the plain of Moab, <span style="color:blue">begin to involve themselves with the Moabite women.</span> Consequently, under the influence of Moabite culture, the Israelites begin whoring after the Moabite gods, and join themselves to Baal Peor (Hebrew בעל פעור Ba‘al Pə‘ôr), in the Septuagint Beelphegôr, a baal associated with Mount Pe‘or.
 
−
<br><br>
 
−
YHWH orders Moses to gather the chiefs of the people and hang up the idolaters before Yahweh to turn away Yahweh's anger. The scene then abruptly shifts from concerns about Moabites to those about Midianites. A man — Israelite Zimri, the son of Salu — <span style="color:blue">brings a Midianite woman Cozbi into the camp in the sight of Moses, where the people are weeping. Phinehas, grandson of Aaron, thereupon rises up with a spear, follows the man into the chamber and thrusts the spear through both the man and woman, who were evidently in the act of copulation. The plague, from which 24,000 had died, then ceased to take life.</span> A war with Midian follows later. {{link|url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_of_Peor}}
 
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</blockquote>
 
 
}}
 
}}
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-->
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 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Do the scriptures endorse child abuse?]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
  
 
==Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"==
 
==Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"==
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{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 
{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
−
|L1=Jeffery R. Holland: "It is wrong to assume that Nephi in any way wished to take Laban’s life"
 
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|L2=Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?
 
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|L3=Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?
 
 
}}
 
}}
 
{{appeal to ridicule}}
 
{{appeal to ridicule}}
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{{:Jeffery R. Holland: "It is wrong to assume that Nephi in any way wished to take Laban’s life"}}
+
 
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{{:Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?}}
+
 
−
{{:Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?}}
+
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Jeffery R. Holland: "It is wrong to assume that Nephi in any way wished to take Laban’s life"]]
 +
*[[Question: Did Nephi commit "cold blooded murder" when he killed Laban?]]
 +
*[[Question: Why didn't God simply preserve Nephi's life using divine power instead of requiring him to kill Laban?]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
  
 
==Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"==
 
==Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"==
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
 
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
−
|claim=God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?  What kind of a god is this?  Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?
+
|claim=4. Exodus 12:12
 +
God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?  What kind of a god is this?  Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?
 
}}
 
}}
−
{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
+
{{propaganda|
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
−
|L1=Question: Why would a loving God would kill innocent children in the flood of Noah's day?
 
−
|L2=Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?
 
−
|L3=Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"
 
 
}}
 
}}
 
{{appeal to emotion}}
 
{{appeal to emotion}}
−
{{:Question: Why would a loving God would kill innocent children in the flood of Noah's day?}}
 
−
{{:Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?}}
 
−
{{:Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"}}
 
  
−
==Response to claim: "Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"==
+
 
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Why would a loving God would kill innocent children in the flood of Noah's day?]]
 +
*[[Question: Why would a loving God kill the firstborn of Egypt?]]
 +
*[[Joseph Fielding Smith: "This was also in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ"]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
 +
 
 +
==Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"==
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
 
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
−
|claim=Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!<br>....<br>
+
|claim=To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!
−
God commands death penalty for those who work on the Sabbath trying to support their families.
 
 
}}
 
}}
−
{{propaganda|The author trivializes the Law of Moses in order to score propaganda points.
+
{{propaganda|We should understand the bible in context and as a whole to grasp a fuller and more enlightening picture.
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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|L1=Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?
 
−
|L2=JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"
 
 
}}
 
}}
 
{{appeal to ridicule}}
 
{{appeal to ridicule}}
−
{{:Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?}}
+
 
−
{{:JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"}}
+
 
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Why are Old Testament penalties for disobedience so harsh?]]
 +
*[[JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy: "Filial insubordination is a grave offense because respect and obedience toward parents is regarded as the cornerstone of all order and authority"]]
 +
{{Back to top}}
 +
 
 +
==Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"==
 +
{{IndexClaimItemShort
 +
|title=Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision)
 +
|claim=D&C 132:  I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed.”  Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed
 +
}}
 +
{{propaganda|Although it has been addressed elsewhere, it may be good to place responses to this claim here. The author distorts the scriptural intent. Claims of being "destroyed" are overdone. There is a possibility that the wife didn't have to be a virgin as the author claims v. 63 stipulates earlier on in the CES Letter under Concerns & Questions about Polygamy.
 +
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 +
}}
 +
 
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Question: Was Emma was promised "annihilation" if she didn't accept plural marriage?]]
 +
*[[Question: Was the only purpose of polygamy to "multiply and replenish the earth" and "bear the souls of men"?]]
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{{Back to top}}
  
 
==Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"==
 
==Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"==
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{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 
{{propaganda|The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
 
|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Scriptures Concerns & Questions
−
|L1=Elder Jeffery R. Holland: "it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much"
 
−
|L2=Question: Why would God send poisonous serpents to kill the Children of Israel?
 
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|L3=Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?
 
 
}}
 
}}
 
{{appeal to emotion}}
 
{{appeal to emotion}}
 
{{appeal to ridicule}}
 
{{appeal to ridicule}}
−
{{:Elder Jeffery R. Holland: "it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much"}}
 
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{{:Question: Why would God send poisonous serpents to kill the Children of Israel?}}
 
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{{:Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?}}
 
  
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{{endnotes sources}}
 
  
 +
'''Longer response(s) to question:'''
 +
*[[Elder Jeffery R. Holland: "it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much"]]
 +
*[[Question: Why would God send poisonous serpents to kill the Children of Israel?]]
 +
*[[Question: Do Latter-day Saints believe in a "part-time racist" and "psychopathic schizophrenic" god?]]
 +
 +
{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
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|title=[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
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|author=Jeremy Runnells
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|noauthor=
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|section=Scriptures Concerns & Questions
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|previous=[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
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|next=[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
 +
|notes=
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}}
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[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]
 
[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

Latest revision as of 14:21, 13 April 2024

FAIR Answers—back to home page

Detailed response to CES Letter, Scriptures



[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
A FAIR Analysis of: [[../|Letter to a CES Director]], a work by author: Jeremy Runnells
 		[[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
Chart CES Letter scriptures.png

Response to section "Scriptures Concerns & Questions"

Summary: The author states that "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse, stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix cotton with polyester, and so on."


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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed..."

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...

[…]

As a believing Mormon, I tried to rationalize some of the craziness by saying, “Oh, this is in the crazy Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in force. Christ came and fulfilled the Law of Moses.”

The problem with this is that the crazy god of the Old Testament was Jehovah. Who’s Jehovah? The premortal Jesus Christ. So, Christ is the crazy god of the Old Testament. The Christ of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are light years different.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author has many concerns about the scriptures. None of the things listed are "endorsed" by God. There are several things that can be misunderstood about the scriptures that can cause concern without a proper framework to view them through. Without it, it is easy to be bogged down by how critics misrepresent and misunderstand the scriptures. At the beginning of this section from the author, we give a suggested hermeneutic for viewing these things from the scriptures. It can show a unified purpose to some of that "craziness" in the Bible.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...7. Numbers 21: 5-9"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide...pillage, plunder...2. Numbers 31...3. 1 Nephi 4...4. Exodus 12:12...7. Numbers 21: 5-9...

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

These are hard scriptures to understand. These are addressed in articles or articles linked to those articles below.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...rape...selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy...sexism...8. Judges 19:22-29

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

"To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...slavery"

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...racism

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...human sacrifice

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director {April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...child abuse

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author misrepresents the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

The Lord commands Nephi to murder (decapitate) Laban for the brass plates. Never mind that Laban was drunk and defenseless. The argument that Laban would send his servants after Nephi and his brothers is ridiculous considering that the same God who had no problem lighting stones and taming swarms of bees (Ether 2-3) for the Brother of Jared can also preserve Nephi.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors?"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

4. Exodus 12:12 God kills all the firstborn children in Egypt except for those who put blood on their doors? What kind of a god is this? Like the flood, what kind of a loving god would kill innocent children for the actions of others?

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Emotion—The author attempts to manipulate the reader's emotional response instead of presenting a valid argument.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed...stoning disobedient children...killing people who worked on the Sabbath, death penalty for those that mixed cotton with polyester...Got a rebellious kid who doesn’t listen? Take him to the elders and to the end of the gates and stone him to death!

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

We should understand the bible in context and as a whole to grasp a fuller and more enlightening picture.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "1. D&C 132"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

D&C 132: I’m supposed to believe in a god who issued an FLDS style revelation that states stuff like: the only form of polygamy permitted is a union with a virgin after first giving the opportunity to the first wife to consent to the marriage. If the first wife doesn’t consent, the husband is exempt and may still take an additional wife, but the first wife must at least have the opportunity to consent. In case the first wife doesn’t consent, she will be “destroyed.” Also, the new wife must be a virgin before the marriage and be completely monogamous after the marriage or she will be destroyed

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

Although it has been addressed elsewhere, it may be good to place responses to this claim here. The author distorts the scriptural intent. Claims of being "destroyed" are overdone. There is a possibility that the wife didn't have to be a virgin as the author claims v. 63 stipulates earlier on in the CES Letter under Concerns & Questions about Polygamy.


Longer response(s) to question:

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Response to claim: "I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well"

The author(s) of Letter to a CES Director (April 2013 revision) make(s) the following claim:

God doesn’t like to hear whining and ingratitude so he sends out a bunch of snakes to kill the people. When the people had enough of the snakes, they ask Moses to tell God to quit it. God decides Moses is persuasive and tells Moses to put a snake a pole and tell the people to look at the pole and they won’t die. So, the pole is built, the people look at it and they don’t die. The moral of the story? Don’t whine or God will send in the snakes. (Numbers 21:5-9: )
....
I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well.

FAIR's Response

Fact checking results: This claim contains propaganda - The author, or the author's source, is providing information or ideas in a slanted way in order to instill a particular attitude or response in the reader

The author trivializes the scriptures in order to score propaganda points.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Emotion—The author attempts to manipulate the reader's emotional response instead of presenting a valid argument.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.


Longer response(s) to question:


[[../Science Concerns & Questions|Science Concerns & Questions]]
A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
A work by author: Jeremy Runnells
 [[../Other Concerns & Questions|Other Concerns & Questions]]
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