Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates

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Response to MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"

A FairMormon Analysis of: MormonThink, a work by author: Anonymous
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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"

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Response to claim: "Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

Critics of the church often use the weight of the plates as evidence that the Book of Mormon story is not true. They go through complex calculations to show how gold plates with the dimensions described by the witnesses must have weighed some 200 pounds.....Also pure gold would be too malleable to be useful for permanent engraving.....In this instance we disagree with the critics' premise. We don't feel that the plates had to be made of solid gold. Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold.

FairMormon Response

Fact checking results: This claim is based upon correct information - The author is providing knowledge concerning some particular fact, subject, or event

This is correct.


Question: How much did the gold plates weigh?

The plates weighed approximately sixty pounds

Witnesses of the Book of Mormon were consistent in their witness that the plates weighed 40-60 pounds.

Some critics assume that the "golden plates" are pure gold, or that they are a solid block of gold. Neither conclusion is warranted.

  1. Pure gold plates would be too soft to hold engraving well. An alloy of gold and copper called "tumbaga," known in Mesoamerica, would suit both the appearance and weight of the plates.[1]
  2. The plates were not a solid block of gold, but a set of page-like leaves, which reduces the weight by about 50%.
  • "weighing altogether from forty to sixty lbs."[2] —Martin Harris

Witness statements regarding the weight of the gold plates

  • "I was permitted to lift them. . . . They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgement."[3] —William Smith
  • "I . . . judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds."[4]—William Smith
  • "They were much heavier than a stone, and very much heavier than wood. . . . As near as I could tell, about sixty pounds."[5] —William Smith
  • "I hefted the plates, and I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold."[6] —Martin Harris
  • "My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them."[7] —Martin Harris
  • "I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work."[8] —Emma Smith
  • Joseph's sister Catherine, while she was dusting in the room where he had been translating, "hefted those plates [which were covered with a cloth] and found them very heavy."[9] —H. S. Salisbury, paraphrasing Catherine Smith Salisbury


Response to claim: "It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men"

The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:

How could any man, especially a man who had a slight limp run with a 50 pound weight and avoid capture by three assailants? The journey through the woods was about 3 miles as Joseph indicated above. It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men for some 1 to 2 miles that were bent on taking the plates from Joseph. And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance - especially carrying a 50 lb. weight.
....
If the story is but a 'tall tale', regardless of its origins, it should not be taught in church as a true, historical account, as we have been taught growing up in the church, just to provide another faith-promoting event. Otherwise, it causes credibility problems for the church by casting doubt as well on other more fundamental church narratives that are essential to the church's claims to being restored through Joseph Smith.

FairMormon Response

Fact checking results: This claim is false

This is incorrect.


Question: Is it inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men?

The critics' claims

One anti-Mormon website claims that even at 40-60 lbs, the story of Joseph running with the plates is impossible.[10]

The critics claim:

It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men for some 1 to 2 miles that were bent on taking the plates from Joseph.

Nobody claims that Joseph "outran" the men

First, Lucy does not say that Joseph "outran" the men—in each case, a man tried to ambush him alone, and Joseph struck them and ran on. So, the key question would seem to be, "Was Joseph physically capable of incapacitating someone with a blow?" His well-known skill at wrestling and stick-pulling would suggest that he was. He does not have to outrun three men trying to trap him simultaneously.

Lucy also says that at least one of the men had traveled sixty miles the day and night before

Second, Lucy also says that at least one of the men had traveled sixty miles the day and night before. This suggests that he, at least, would not have been at his peak by the time he accosted Joseph, and probably more ill-suited to a long chase than the prophet.

Others have demonstrated such abilities

Third, this type of thing is not "inconceivable" at all:

  • God could well have blessed him beyond his own abilities. That said, Joseph was well-known for his strength and ability to do serious amounts of physical work, as well as wrestle and pull sticks—maybe he's in better physical shape than MormonThink wants to grant?
  • In a culture and time when all work is done by either human or animal muscle power, frontier farmers like the Smiths were likely in far better physical condition than most twenty-first century westerners.
  • Several people testified of the plates' weight, and they all knew Joseph Smith. None of them found the story inherently impossible. None of them challenged Joseph's tale—including his family who both knew him best and handled the plates.
  • Did you know that traditional Chinese martial artists recommend training in "hilly terrain" to build strength, and running with a rucksack containing 56 lbs for men, for a distance of at least 5 miles? (They emphasize that farmlife made such things doable anciently.)
  • During World War II, a Canadian infantry sergeant carried his friend on his shoulders for half a mile, while under continuous enemy fire. A wounded man weighs considerably more than fifty pounds, and he probably didn't loiter while under severe fire.
  • Hitler's SS trained to run 3 km (1.87 miles) in twenty minutes with full gear.[11]
  • Israel Defense Force officer candidates must past the "Loren test"—"scaling a two-meter wall, climbing a three-meter wall, completing an obstacle course, running two miles, and then target-shooting — all in under 22 minutes," and done in full battle gear.

While such feats are not easy, and are tiring (and Joseph had to rest a bit before even asking his mother to go get help), they are well within human ability, then and now.

Joseph's limp didn't hinder his physical ability

The critics claim:

And all this from a young man that had a slight limp and would have difficulty running at a high speed for a long distance - especially carrying a 50 lb. weight.

What evidence is there that Joseph's "slight limp" made it hard for him to run at high speed? Joseph managed fine during the Zion's Camp march of nearly a thousand miles on foot at 25-40 miles per day.[12] He'd had the limp since his boyhood operation, and was likely well-adjusted to it.

It also didn't seem to stop Joseph from competing well in footraces and high jumping:

. . . All of the Henrie boys were of the rugged athletic type and all were fairly big fellows. Daniel being the smallest, but he was strong and wirey. They loved to wrestle, run and jump and often did it in the less tense moments when they had time. The prophet also loved and excelled in these sports and one day Daniel related he walked up to one of their high corral gates—it came up to his chin as he measured it—then he walked back a little way, took a running jump, and cleared the gate easily. Daniel related that he often beat the Prophet racing and also at the high jump, but when the prophet thought it was his turn to win and he really tried, he could out them all.[13]

This doesn't sound like a man whose limp is crippling him--and Joseph was younger and likely more fit during the Book of Mormon translating period, when he was focused almost entirely on farming, rather than splitting his attention as required for Church administration.

Critics of the Church claim that the story of Joseph running with the plates is merely a "tall tale" simply because the believe that it can't be done

The critics claim:

If the story is but a 'tall tale', regardless of its origins, it should not be taught in church as a true, historical account, as we have been taught growing up in the church, just to provide another faith-promoting event.

We have no reason to think the story of Joseph running with the plates is a "tall tale" save MormonThink's "argument from incredulity"—they don't believe it can be done, so therefore it's a tall tale. But, people clearly can and do do what Joseph claimed he did, especially when the story which his mother actually told (three separate attacks by individual men) is considered.


Question: How much did the gold plates weigh?

The plates weighed approximately sixty pounds

Witnesses of the Book of Mormon were consistent in their witness that the plates weighed 40-60 pounds.

Some critics assume that the "golden plates" are pure gold, or that they are a solid block of gold. Neither conclusion is warranted.

  1. Pure gold plates would be too soft to hold engraving well. An alloy of gold and copper called "tumbaga," known in Mesoamerica, would suit both the appearance and weight of the plates.[14]
  2. The plates were not a solid block of gold, but a set of page-like leaves, which reduces the weight by about 50%.
  • "weighing altogether from forty to sixty lbs."[15] —Martin Harris

Witness statements regarding the weight of the gold plates

  • "I was permitted to lift them. . . . They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgement."[16] —William Smith
  • "I . . . judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds."[17]—William Smith
  • "They were much heavier than a stone, and very much heavier than wood. . . . As near as I could tell, about sixty pounds."[18] —William Smith
  • "I hefted the plates, and I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold."[19] —Martin Harris
  • "My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them."[20] —Martin Harris
  • "I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work."[21] —Emma Smith
  • Joseph's sister Catherine, while she was dusting in the room where he had been translating, "hefted those plates [which were covered with a cloth] and found them very heavy."[22] —H. S. Salisbury, paraphrasing Catherine Smith Salisbury


Question: What did Joseph Smith say about efforts that were made to steal the gold plates from him?

Joseph said relatively little about efforts to steal the plates in his official history

59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.

60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible. But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight. (Joseph Smith History 1:59-60)


Lucy Mack Smith: "They stood in the yard near the door, and were devising plans to find "Joe Smith's gold bible," as they expressed themselves"

Lucy Mack Smith's account of the retrieval of the gold plates:

My husband soon learned that ten or twelve men were clubbed together, with one Willard Chase, a Methodist class leader, at their head; and what was still more ridiculous, they had sent sixty or seventy miles for a certain conjuror, to come and divine the place where the plates were secreted.

We supposed that Joseph had taken the plates, and hid them somewhere, and we were apprehensive that our enemies might discover their place of deposit. Accordingly, the next morning, after hearing of their plans, my husband concluded to go among the neighbours to see what he could learn with regard to the plans of the adverse party. The first house he came to, he found the conjuror and Willard Chase, together with the rest of the clan. Making an errand, he went in and sat down near the door, leaving it a little ajar, in order to overhear their conversation. They stood in the yard near the door, and were devising plans to find "Joe Smith's gold bible," as they expressed themselves. The conjuror seemed much animated, although he had travelled sixty miles the day and night previous.

Presently, the woman of the house, becoming uneasy at the exposures they were making, stepped through a back door into the yard, and called to her husband, in a suppressed tone, but loud enough to be heard distinctly by Mr. Smith, "Sam, Sam, you are cutting your own throat." At this the conjuror [p.103] bawled out at the top of his voice, "I am not afraid of any body—we will have them plates in spite of Joe Smith or all the devils in hell." When the woman came in again, Mr. Smith laid aside a newspaper which he had been holding in his hand, and remarked, "I believe I have not time to finish reading the paper now." He then left the house, and returned home. Mr. Smith, on returning home, asked Emma, if she knew whether Joseph had taken the plates from their place of deposit, or if she was able to tell him where they were. She said, she could not tell where they were, or whether they were removed from their place. My husband then related what he had both seen and heard....

[104] The plates were secreted about three miles from home, in the following manner. Finding an old birch log much decayed, excepting the bark, which was in a measure sound, he lock, his pocket knife and cut the bark with some care, then turned it back, and made a hole of sufficient size to receive the plates, and laying them in the cavity thus formed, he replaced the bark; after which he laid across the log, in several places, some old stuff that happened to lay near, in order to conceal, as much as possible, the place in which they were deposited.

Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home.

[105] After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Travelling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. lie was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running.

After resting a few moments, he desired me to send Carlos for my husband, Mr. Knight, and his friend Steal....[23]


Notes

  1. See Roy W. Doxey, "I Have A Question: What was the approximate weight of the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated?," Ensign (December 1986), 64.
  2. Martin Harris interview, Iowa State Register, August 1870, as quoted in Milton V. Backman Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1986), 226.
  3. William Smith, William Smith on Mormonism (Lamoni, Iowa: Herald Steam, 1883), 12.
  4. William Smith interview with E. C. Briggs. Originally written by J. W. Peterson for Zions Ensign (Independence, Mo.); reprinted in Deseret Evening News, 20 January 1894, 11.
  5. William Smith interview, The Saints' Herald, 4 October 1884, 644.
  6. "Interview with Martin Harris," Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859, 169.
  7. "Interview with Martin Harris," Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859, 168.
  8. Emma Smith interview, published as "Last Testimony of Sister Emma," The Saints' Herald, 1 October 1879.
  9. I. B. Bell interview with H. S. Salisbury (grandson of Catherine Smith Salisbury), Historical Department Archives, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
  10. MormonThink.com website (as of 29 April 2012). Page: http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm
  11. Christopher Ailsby, SS: Hell on the Eastern Front: The Waffen-SS War in Russia, 1941-1945 (Osceloa, WI: MBI Publishing Co., 1998), p. 18
  12. Richard L. Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Knopf, 2005), 239.
  13. Mark L. McConkie, Remembering Joseph: Personal Recollections of Those Who Knew the Prophet Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book Company, 2003), Henrie, William account citing Callie O. Morley, "History of William and Myra Mayall Henrie, Pioneers of 1847 and 1847," Delta, West Millard County, Utah, October 1955, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 4-5..(print version) ISBN 978-1570089633 GL direct link
  14. See Roy W. Doxey, "I Have A Question: What was the approximate weight of the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated?," Ensign (December 1986), 64.
  15. Martin Harris interview, Iowa State Register, August 1870, as quoted in Milton V. Backman Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1986), 226.
  16. William Smith, William Smith on Mormonism (Lamoni, Iowa: Herald Steam, 1883), 12.
  17. William Smith interview with E. C. Briggs. Originally written by J. W. Peterson for Zions Ensign (Independence, Mo.); reprinted in Deseret Evening News, 20 January 1894, 11.
  18. William Smith interview, The Saints' Herald, 4 October 1884, 644.
  19. "Interview with Martin Harris," Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859, 169.
  20. "Interview with Martin Harris," Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859, 168.
  21. Emma Smith interview, published as "Last Testimony of Sister Emma," The Saints' Herald, 1 October 1879.
  22. I. B. Bell interview with H. S. Salisbury (grandson of Catherine Smith Salisbury), Historical Department Archives, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
  23. Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations (Liverpool, S.W. Richards, 1853), 102, 104-5.